Macross Delta - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Gravitas Free Zone]

I forget if it was here or elsewhere, but someone mentioned/reminded that Frontier had two infodump episodes right before it concluded, so maybe that puts the pacing in perspective.

[Dash_Hunter]

According to some magazines, next episode is actually a flash-back episode focusing on Makina and Reina and some Mikumo.
Ugh, because what we absolutely need is a flash-back episode to know more backstory of Makina and Reina right? I mean I like them both, but I think we know enough about them taking into account that they are not really that important to the overall plot.

Edit:
After seeing the preview images on the official site it seems we'll actually get some mecha action this time, and with the VF-31A no less so count me as cautiously optimistic.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Pilots you have many to pick from... But people with fold receptors high enough to fight VAR? That's extremely rare. Out of thousands of girls that auditioned, only Freyja had what it took to get in. Walkure girls are special snowflakes that are hard to come across.

So I went back to check on this (Actually ep 2 has a lot of funny details I never noticed before) Freyja was actually under performing. Asides from her there were 4 girls who were possible candidates, and Freyja actually wasn't one of them. When Mikumo asked about Freyja, Reina actually tells her there is some fold receptor activity but not high enough to qualify.

Because she's proven herself before in the battlefield, Mikumo actually gave her special treatment and put her through a special test to see if her fold receptors would respond. They did. I'm going to believe Mikumo took a huge gamble on this as prior to the test they failed absolutely everyone, and the test run to put Freyja through involved them being physically part of the test observing.

So.....YEAH. There were girls who had fold receptors high enough to fight VAR. Freyja actually wasn't one of them.

[CriiGV]

Originally Posted by ippus

So I went back to check on this (Actually ep 2 has a lot of funny details I never noticed before) Freyja was actually under performing. Asides from her there were 4 girls who were possible candidates, and Freyja actually wasn't one of them. When Mikumo asked about Freyja, Reina actually tells her there is some fold receptor activity but not high enough to qualify.

Because she's proven herself before in the battlefield, Mikumo actually gave her special treatment and put her through a special test to see if her fold receptors would respond. They did. I'm going to believe Mikumo took a huge gamble on this as prior to the test they failed absolutely everyone, and the test run to put Freyja through involved them being physically part of the test observing.

So.....YEAH. There were girls who had fold receptors high enough to fight VAR. Freyja actually wasn't one of them.

Freyja was within the 4 girls that had fold receptor activity (Reina's original words were "Checking for fold receptor activity... Only 4 girls" . And I doubt that they would intentionally flunk the other three girls just for Freyja, specially when they need all the support they can get.

Yes, Freyja got a chance because they already knew what she was capable of. Her fold receptors are only second to Mikumo, hence why she takes her spot next to her.

Anyway, my original point is that Walkure girls aren't something you can just go ahead and pick out from the masses. These are girls that are "special" within "special". Hence why they should be held in a better regard and not hostile treatment like being put in jail.

[Triple_R]

chaos is probably doing things with Mikumo that they shouldn't be doing and/or Mikumo herself is a special test-case of some sort. So chaos doesn't want the rest of Walkure to know about that since there's some information there that would upset Walkure. Giving it some thought, I can live with this if this is the case.

I still find it a little strange that Walkure aren't trying to force things more with Arad/Johnson, but whatever. Maybe Walkure are so good-natured and humble that they don't fully grasp the celebrity power they now have.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

I forget if it was here or elsewhere, but someone mentioned/reminded that Frontier had two infodump episodes right before it concluded, so maybe that puts the pacing in perspective.

That is completely wrong. The recap episode was 15 and it wasn't all that re-cappy.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Freyja was within the 4 girls that had fold receptor activity (Reina's original words were "Checking for fold receptor activity... Only 4 girls" . And I doubt that they would intentionally flunk the other three girls just for Freyja, specially when they need all the support they can get.

Yes, Freyja got a chance because they already knew what she was capable of. Her fold receptors are only second to Mikumo, hence why she takes her spot next to her.

Anyway, my original point is that Walkure girls aren't something you can just go ahead and pick out from the masses. These are girls that are "special" within "special". Hence why they should be held in a better regard and not hostile treatment like being put in jail.

The next lines were
Mi > "What about that girl?"
R > "She has it too, but the values are lower than required"

It would help to know if the subs are right on the nuances but that doesn't sound like she's part of the 4, and doesn't really change the fact that her numbers were actually sub optimal.

I'm also pretty sure they did flunk the rest as Makina says "Just as you predicted, KumoKumo". They already had the numbers of Freyja's potential in the battlefield and all they needed was confirmation that it won't be a one off thing. By episode 3 though it was them trying to keep her fold receptors stable enough for use and at points in time during the practices she's actually shown no fold receptor activities whatsoever.

My point is...you're not wrong that they're special, but you are wrong in the assessment that Freyja was the only one qualified at the time- thus making the rest of the WALKURES inexpendable. There's actually conveniently 4 (or 3 if the subs are wrong) they could have trained up if they really wanted to.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That is completely wrong. The recap episode was 15 and it wasn't all that re-cappy.

Regardless I hope it doesn't happen at all because Delta has already had their budget saver episode. Stuffing another one in at this point would be infuriating.

[CriiGV]

Honestly, I'm just amazed you go to such great lengths to undermine Freyja's participation in Walkure. I'm not only talking about your current post, but past posts as well. I mean sure there's nothing wrong with opinions but all I did was mention Freyja in passing on a post that was entirely about something else on a bigger picture, but Freyja was the thing you decided to latch on to. Anyway, forgive me if that offends you or anything of the like. I'm just going to go back to talk about what I was originally talking about, which is that Walkure shouldn't be mistreated or left in the dark because they are an important part of the battle.

Triple R, somethings fishy with Arad/Ernest. They know more than they let on. Perhaps this is why Arad says everyone has things under the rug? They don't seem like bad guys to me, but they haven't exactly given reasons to blindly trust them when they've withheld important information.

I wonder if Lady M will make an appearance now that there are so many doubts within the organization. Incoming Mikumo reveal? I hope so. 20 episodes of Mikumo mystery is really an overkill. We gotta get moving.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Triple R, somethings fishy with Arad/Ernest. They know more than they let on. Perhaps this is why Arad says everyone has things under the rug? They don't seem like bad guys to me, but they haven't exactly given reasons to blindly trust them when they've withheld important information.

I wonder if Lady M will make an appearance now that there are so many doubts within the organization. Incoming Mikumo reveal? I hope so. 20 episodes of Mikumo mystery is really an overkill. We gotta get moving.

I suspect that the key to everything is Mikumo. It's possible that Arad/Ernest know something about Mikumo that the rest of Walkure doesn't. Mikumo is clearly something/someone very special, not just a human with strong fold receptors and a good singing voice.

I speculate that once the truth about Mikumo fully comes out, the final arc will kick into high-gear. Sad to say, but I kinda except Mikumo will take an antagonistic turn, likely upon regaining her memories and/or coming to a greater understanding of what/who exactly she is. I actually think there's a good chance that Mikumo pretty much kidnaps Freyja and/or Heinz and tries to keep them to herself. Yes, Mikumo as "last boss" makes the most sense to me right now, as Roid seems to be playing with things that he doesn't fully understand and the plot has increasingly become focused on Mikumo.

[HirouKeimou]

Triple R, if she did capture Freyja, I believe Freyja would be her savior by trying to help her remember everything good about singing/humanity/life and doing so would more than likely help Freyja understand her own music more, too. That's... if we're to go into speculations though. Personally, I hope no one is kidnapped because even if Frontier did it a little bit, I didn't really feel it flowed nicely with the characters and/or story itself.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

Honestly, I'm just amazed you go to such great lengths to undermine Freyja's participation in Walkure. I'm not only talking about your current post, but past posts as well. I mean sure there's nothing wrong with opinions but all I did was mention Freyja in passing on a post that was entirely about something else on a bigger picture, but Freyja was the thing you decided to latch on to. Anyway, forgive me if that offends you or anything of the like. I'm just going to go back to talk about what I was originally talking about, which is that Walkure shouldn't be mistreated or left in the dark because they are an important part of the battle.

Was I wrong in saying that Freyja began her journey with sub optimal numbers....? Was I being insulting for saying Freyja's previous peak activities was what gave her special treatment? Was I wrong that 4 (or 3) candidates showed mentionable fold receptor activity?

My current argument wasn't even honestly about the value of Freyja but the value of the WALKURE as a whole. Some people here (including you) are acting like the WALKURE are holding all the cards to demand what they want, I'm simply arguing it's not the case. IS THAT SO DAMAGING TO YOUR BELOVED FREYJA?

Also, how about you guys don't constantly undermine Mirage's character by touting the claim that any Mirage choice would be another one for a Pity Relationship. Like what in the bloody hell is that even suppose to mean? Pity what exactly? Rejection? I've hated that argument when it was thrown about during Frontier when people claimed choosing Sheryl would be Pitying the Dying like she hasn't done anything else to deserve a relationship. So by definition if Hayate chooses Freyja is must be because he pities her ever dwindling lifespan right? Since we're apparently all in the habit of ignoring absolutely everything relevant to the relationship conversation. Oh, or tropes. Magical girl has a super deep connection with main hero, they MUST be together so ohhh clicheeeee!! I'm so sick and tired of how often this comes up!!!

Maybe if you stopped throwing out such ridiculously extremities I won't have to constantly point out Freyjas flaws which you so obviously don't want to believe exist. Because god forbid she be treated like anything other than the special snowflake she so obviously is.

Or- don't? Continue saying what you wish and I'll say whatever I wish and oh I don't know, we can actually argue different view points because such things actually exist =_=

[CriiGV]

I've been thinking Mikumo will be the final boss for quite some time now as well. Excuse the anime trope, but red eyes are usually used for characters who start off evil, or turn evil along the way.

I actually laughed a bit at your paragraph about Mikumo kidnapping Heinz and Freyja, like "mine! Mine! Mine!". It was cute.

Perhaps in the end Windies and Chaos will unite to bring Mikumo down.

Edit: Ippus, first of all, I am not going to argue with you about character biases because that would be counterproductive.

Second, you are free to express your thoughts on whatever character you want as long as you do it in the appropriate thread and do it while keeping a leveled head. I do however agree that Mirage's character if often questioned, I myself included have done this but not to a disrespectful or undermining way (at least that I remember, and if I have, then I'm an idiot, aren't I?). I can understand the frustrations up to this point.

Third, I simply pointed out that you derived off of my original post to talk about Freyja when it wasn't even about her at all which led me to question your motives. I don't believe anyone has ever stated that Freyja is perfect, we are all aware that she has flaws as well as any other character.

Fourth, at the end of my statement I apologized if my words offended you in any particular way so I am unclear as to why you would follow with an outburst.

Lastly, I understand where your anger comes from but you will not solve anything by attacking another character. I, on multiple occasions have agreed that Mirage deserves better treatment than the one she is getting because of the triangle. You will find people that agree and disagree.

I guess it's a matter of taking everything with a grain of salt. If you like your character, then stand by them and support them.

Anyway, I do not wish to argue with you because I am simply here to discuss the episode and have a good time. Have a nice day, Ippus.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Triple R, if she did capture Freyja, I believe Freyja would be her savior by trying to help her remember everything good about singing/humanity/life and doing so would more than likely help Freyja understand her own music more, too. That's... if we're to go into speculations though. Personally, I hope no one is kidnapped because even if Frontier did it a little bit, I didn't really feel it flowed nicely with the characters and/or story itself.

I'm just trying to think of a wild way to bring all this show's various subplots together into an epic conclusion that can be decently done in a few episodes.

So here's my tentative idea - Mikumo wakes up, figures out what chaos (and NUN?) has done to her, Mikumo feels betrayed and abused, and decides that all she now cares about are the singers that enchant/intrigue her the most: Namely, Freyja and/or Heinz.

So Mikumo somehow goes cosmic-level (maybe during a Roid experiment gone horribly wrong?), and kidnaps Heinz and Freyja bringing them to Mikumo's new cosmic shrine of music somewhere.

This becomes the catalyst for Windermere and chaos to put aside their differences, as they'd have a shared goal in stopping Mikumo. Windermere would obviously want to get their King back, and chaos would hope to retrieve Freyja (and/or rehabilitate Mikumo). In the midst of the two sides working together, some reveals are made, most of the Aerial Knights decide that the war isn't worth it, Keith topples Roid (especially if Roid had something to do with Mikumo going cosmic/antagonistic in the first place).

We get some trippy space scenes of Mikumo expressing her love to a captive Freyja and Heinz, no doubt spurring numerous fun doujins.

Big final conflict is Windermere/chaos against Cosmic Goddess Mikumo (including Hayate fighting to save his girlfriend), Mikumo is defeated (but hopefully saved), fighting for a common cause brings Windermere and "Earthlings" closer together, and it's decided that it's time for Roid's crazy plans to be put aside and for PEACE IN OUR TIME.

And that's a wrap! That's our story. Could be a fun way to end it as long as Mikumo isn't hurt too much by it, and is restored in the end.

...On 2nd thought, it might be too flashy a way to go, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway. It would certainly be a very anime ending. In my experience, anime loves this sort of stuff.

[CriiGV]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

We get some trippy space scenes of Mikumo expressing her love to a captive Freyja and Heinz, no doubt spurring numerous fun doujins.

Big final conflict is Windermere/chaos against Cosmic Goddess Mikumo (including Hayate fighting to save his girlfriend), Mikumo is defeated (but hopefully saved), fighting for a common cause brings Windermere and "Earthlings" closer together, and it's decided that it's time for Roid's crazy plans to be put aside and for PEACE IN OUR TIME.

And that's a wrap! That's our story. Could be a fun way to end it as long as Mikumo isn't hurt too much by it, and is restored in the end.

...On 2nd thought, it might be too flashy a way to go, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway. It would certainly be a very anime ending. In my experience, anime loves this sort of stuff.

Trippy I'm sure the fans would revolt at the twists and turns. I LOVE IT, it's like a space opera to the 10th degree. I'm still trying to imagine Mikumo using her songs to bring everyone under control, it'd be glorious.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

chaos is probably doing things with Mikumo that they shouldn't be doing and/or Mikumo herself is a special test-case of some sort. So chaos doesn't want the rest of Walkure to know about that since there's some information there that would upset Walkure. Giving it some thought, I can live with this if this is the case.

I still find it a little strange that Walkure aren't trying to force things more with Arad/Johnson, but whatever. Maybe Walkure are so good-natured and humble that they don't fully grasp the celebrity power they now have.

Have to disagree here. They are doing something to her but not in a negative way. As far as we can see the current tank helps her rather than being in a cage or on an observation desk. We will get the answer tomorrow and looking at the preview it looks more like the other girl try to buy time for Mikumo, Freya and Hayate.

[Mistyclear]

What about Kaname? For the last few episodes Mikumo's been bonding with Kaname, she actually willingly talked to her about herself and the fact that she has no memory. Also in this episode Mikumo properly responds to Kaname singing to her.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by ippus

Also, how about you guys don't constantly undermine Mirage's character by touting the claim that any Mirage choice would be another one for a Pity Relationship.

This is because her interaction with Hayate is so limited and his interest in her is nil compared to Freyja so if he chooses her, it'd be because his options with Freyja are doused (she dies and/or chooses singing over him). Otherwise, his decision will be because of bad writing (seriously, where is the romance even implied in their relationship like it is with Freyja?).

We're not undermining her character; a number of us on here wish to see her develop outside of simply being in love with Hayate. Her character arc is where, really? Even Ranka had one in Frontier where she confronted her past (even if brainwashed in the end). Point is: Mirage's character has things to overcome in her family; and she is doing nothing for overcoming living in her grandparents' shadows or become an ace pilot or even becoming a social person; she's always pulled along for the ride by Hayate (and Freyja), and besides questionably falling in love with Hayate (and recognizing his feelings for Freyja), she has done no real growth in herself. She can admit her faults all she wants, but if she does nothing to overcome them like Hayate and Freyja have overcome theirs (his issues with his dad: choosing to discover the truth; her fears of singing on a battlefield and being considered a traitor to her home world and Wright is behind the bombing on her home world: continue on regardless if only for the sake of ending this war so she can save her people (and others from Var) and sing happy songs like she originally wished to do with Walkure), all her character will be is underdeveloped. Until she develops beyond her "living in shadow" phase, she will forever be an underdeveloped character. Her role right now is in the love triangle and it's all she really has because we've gone beyond a point where she'll receive proper growth as an individual character.

And yes, you could say it's all "bad writing," no one minds because I believe we can all admit areas of Delta are full of "bad writing." I'm choosing to hang in here for the ride because I still have hope it'll all come together in the end. If not, at least I'll have watched it unlike disliking it (or an ending) for silly reasons.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

(including Hayate fighting to save his girlfriend)

I'd love a confession in here.

Seriously, though; even if Mikumo is the big bad, it'll be surprising because I'd believe she'd care enough about her friends -- Freyja (and by default, Hayate), Kaname, Makina, Reina. After all, her growth in the last 5 or so episodes has been all about Mikumo becoming more attached to other characters like Freyja and Kaname, so I believe they'd be able to help her if she envisioned ending this war their way. But I believe it'd be out of her character to kidnap or play a role like Grace did (plan for universal dominance).


On topic for this episode, a music question: is it my imagination or are they playing a Mikumo/Freyja duet of Hametsu no Junjou during the first "experiment" segment? Because I love how it sounds so much different and I hope it's released (I love that song LOL)!

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

On topic for this episode, a music question: is it my imagination or are they playing a Mikumo/Freyja duet of Hametsu no Junjou during the first "experiment" segment? Because I love how it sounds so much different and I hope it's released (I love that song LOL)!

That's actually the version with just Kaname, Makina and Reina. It's a symbolism of how Freyja and Mikumo aren't active in Walkure at the moment.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

That's actually the version with just Kaname, Makina and Reina. It's a symbolism of how Freyja and Mikumo aren't active in Walkure at the moment.

Still would be interesting if they'd also release versions used in episodes; like I'd love the acoustics for Giraffe Blues, too. I keep hoping an 100% vocal album like Frontier had will come out. And I'll keep hoping for a Mikumo/Freyja duet-only of Hametsu no Junjou because their voices compliment each other.

However, doesn't the doctor-guy say "switching to a recorded version"? Did they never record Mikumo and Freyja singing the song? That's a little odd...

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Still would be interesting if they'd also release versions used in episodes; like I'd love the acoustics for Giraffe Blues, too. I keep hoping an 100% vocal album like Frontier had will come out. And I'll keep hoping for a Mikumo/Freyja duet-only of Hametsu no Junjou because their voices compliment each other.

However, doesn't the doctor-guy say "switching to a recorded version"? Did they never record Mikumo and Freyja singing the song? That's a little odd...

I agree. Freyja and Mikumo compliment each others voices so well it's almost unreal. The song that actually shows this the best is the album version of Ikenai Borderline. Their voices literally transcended and became one during the last chorus. Something two other songstresses couldn't achieve.

I think we can expect multiple versions of various songs though. Kaname will eventually have her own version of Giraffe Blues, however based on her past two performances its clear she has a harder time singing it. You can literally hear her using all the breath in her lungs. There is also no doubt in my mind that God Bless You, and Love! Thunder Grow will be a duet between Freyja and Mikumo. Eventually they will have solo versions so they can make more money