Shingeki no Kyojin (Attack on Titan) - Manga discussion

[akumaten]

Congratulations. You saved Armin but lost humanity.

[Pen3]

So Armin is the new leader of the corps?

[Peanutbutter]

Originally Posted by Pen3

So Armin is the new leader of the corps?

Hanji is next in-line. Assuming they can form another Survey Corps anyway, since the new batch from the Military Police have been wiped out...

[The Small One]

Wouldn't it be ironic, if they found a set of those injections in the basement? All this argueing on who to get the serum wasting time, just to find out they could have saved all of them.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by The Small One

Wouldn't it be ironic, if they found a set of those injections in the basement? All this argueing on who to get the serum wasting time, just to find out they could have saved all of them.

I really doubt they would have had time to get to the basement, find a serum, and then go back to the other dying person and save them.

Plus, they only had one shifter to eat, so they'd just be turning the second into a normal Titan.

[Sixth]

Just read the chapter, and I felt sad of Erwin's death, especially at the part he was "dreaming". It is heartbroken scene for me because in the end, he was never meant to be demon.

[Ruki0089]

Awwww.... Erwin is dead... damn, even though I truly like him.. hell, he is my favorite character...
Belt? He got what he deserves... too bad, his suffering end so fast and quick...
And next chapter... we will see what Grishia hide...
I hope we won't got something like
Behind that door... there is small box...
Inside the box would be a piece of paper saying, ‘Thank you for your patronage!’
All member who reading that only can have blank face...

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

Awwww.... Erwin is dead... damn, even though I truly like him.. hell, he is my favorite character...
Belt? He got what he deserves... too bad, his suffering end so fast and quick...
And next chapter... we will see what Grishia hide...
I hope we won't got something like
Behind that door... there is small box...
Inside the box would be a piece of paper saying, ‘Thank you for your patronage!’
All member who reading that only can have blank face...

and stash of titan porn.

[RWBladewing]

Originally Posted by Semblance_of_Power

While both the show and the books have great (and different) flaws, I have never felt neither was relying on shock value as far as character deaths go. It's just a story less constrained by the clichés of mainstream storytelling.

I don't have much to say about the chapter that hasn't already been said but I just wanted to mention I couldn't agree more with this comment in particular. It always frustrates me when GoT is constantly brought up whenever characters die, both because I feel it misses some of the point of that series, as well as because it's disheartening that seemingly so few works actually have narrative stakes now that one that does has become the ur-example that must always be used.

In general I always found the comparisons between AoT and GoT to be kind of silly

I mostly agree with this as well but I actually think such comparisons are becoming more and more appropriate with AoT and the television version of GoT headed in similar directions, based on the events of last season, though this isn't the place to go into detail on that.

To be slightly more on topic, I find your signature very interesting because despite it referring to a different series, that is exactly how I felt about AoT and what really drew me into it. Stuff like, being able to go back to previous chapters after big plot reveals and see tiny details, like the fact that indeed Armin WAS staring suspiciously at Annie's maneuver gear, or that Annie's "I'm sorry" upon seeing Marco's corpse now made perfect sense in multiple contexts, including a much more direct one than the reader may have initially guessed.

It just seemed so expertly crafted and I feel the series has lost a lot of that as time has gone on. More things appear to me to have been made up on the fly now and characters seem to just get dragged along with the plot rather than everything having been set up beforehand. Perhaps I am just really jaded because these past couple years of this battle and the political arc before it really felt like a massive slog.

I wonder if they will change anything up for that political arc if it's going to be featured in season 2 of the anime. I have a feeling that the more casual fans who never picked up the manga after season 1 ended and were mostly in it for the fights and cool characters will absolutely HATE season 2 if they adapt it just as-is.

[Jmariofan7]

Originally Posted by Semblance_of_Power

I honestly think this manga has been severely damaged by it's own popularity.

Not that it was perfect early on but at least it seemed like a serious story with artistic integrity and real stakes.

At this point I can just picture the author's conversation with his publisher/editor/whatever:

Spoiler for Spoilers:

Don't you dare kill any important characters, even if in a meaningful way, we don't want to upset the many fans that just want the most predictable story possible where nobody important ever dies. It doesn't matter of illogical it is or how many asspulls it may require, nobody important dies.

Oh and make sure to start dragging your feet on the plot as much as humanly possible, so we can make even more piles of money.

What a shame.

This is a really big assumption, the author has given little to no evidence to imply this.

First of all, two important characters DID die this chapter (or did you miss the part about Erwin passing away and Bertolt being eaten by Titan Armin?).

Secondly, what "asspulls"? I hope your not talking about Reiner, because those were already explained in detail, (the first time when Levi attacked him, Reiner activated his regenerative power down throughout his whole spinal cord before Levi stabbed him in the neck so he could regenerate from that, and the second time when Reiner had his head blown off Bertolt stated that he transferred his conciseness down into his spinal cord, again, neither of these are asspulls as it's been stated for a while before hand that Titan powers have to do with the brain and spinal cord and the liquid within it and whatever. The third time, I'm pretty sure we were aware of Zeke (aka the Beast Titan) and the dog Titan for a quite a while now) so this argument is pointless.

On the subject of Authors getting screwed over by their editors, publishers and insane and moronic fanbases, I think the person you REALLY should be pitying is Tite Kubo.

Originally Posted by Semblance_of_Power

Spoiler for Spoilers.:

The thing is that AoT doesn't even kill that many important characters. Some named ones with a little bit of back story but that's pretty much it.

Here we have the set up for what's supposed to be a huge battle that's been coming for a long time and it's presented like this desperate struggle against cruel enemies and in the end the good side gets mostly wiped, except basically nobody important really died and all the casualties are just nameless grunts.

It immediately makes the story feel a lot more cheap and artificial, it breaks all suspension of disbelief.

In any case, there were 3 things that made me like AoT initially:

1) It seemed to have a concise storyline, there's this mystery and we're gonna explore it and find out what's happening in a reasonable amount of time.

Now the plot progression seems to have crawled to a standstill.

2) While not exactly fully original and cliche free, it still felt like it was trying to break some conventions of the medium and not just follow the same basic formula that so many other manga/anime do.

Now the author seems scared to take any risk and do anything that may upset any segment of the fanbase.

3) No fanservice, silliness or otaku pandering.

Not to say those things are always bad, but nothing kills what's supposed to be a serious drama like such things.

So at least there's still point 3, let's just hope the author doesn't manage to somehow cram in a beach episode.

I'm going to go on a little bit of an off topic here.

I really disagree when people try to make it seem like GoT is like the Akame ga Kill of Western television.

What Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire does is simply to tell a rather expansive, dramatic story with a huge ensemble cast while removing the plot armor from all except but four characters (which are two too many in my opinion but oh well).

This adds a huge dramatic tension to most of the story simply because of the fact that characters, outside of those four, facing life and death situations will in fact often die as a result of their own actions or as a logical conclusion of the events of the plot. Some times this means the "good" guys die, or the"bad" guys, or the cool character that was introduced recently or the ok character that was introduced long ago, there's not a defined pattern that can be easily recognized and predicted (well, at least until the latter seasons of the show, when there's no source material and the TV writing starts to get into Hollywood levels of laziness).

In general I always found the comparisons between AoT and GoT to be kind of silly, maybe if Eren had actually died when eaten by the titan then it would be more valid. AoT as it stands is far, far more conservative when it comes to killing actual, important characters.

I'm pretty sure Marco was an important character, at least in how he affected other characters such as Jean, also the people that got wiped out weren't all "nameless grunts", remember Marlo? He's been established for quite a while and we've seen his character arc and it's pretty clear his death will have an effect on Hitch, etc. and those "nameless grunts" are still going to have an impact as seen by the recent chapter, and again, Erwin and Bertolt died. People seriously need to stop using the dumb term known as plot armour, EVERYONE has plot armour in a story until they kick the bucket

1) I hardly call what we've been getting the past 30+ chapters a "stand still", most notably that whole revelation about the First King, King Reiss, you do realize that we're not only building up finding the basement but also what happens AFTER the basement. I don't see people complaining to One Piece about this, it's not only building up the treasure, but also what happens AFTER finding it.

2) Again, big assumption here.

3) Really nothing to say here.

About Game of Thrones, exactly what was "Hollywood levels of laziness" in the most recent Season? Also, no source material? Even if the next book isn't out yet, George R. R. Martin has got a good portion of it written out to be made into a season.

Finally, you do realize if Eren really did die there, that would made that whole build up with Grisha wanting to show him the basement and that flashback of Grisha injecting him with the serum completely pointless, right?

[Jan-Poo]

Hmm so there's people disappointed because Armin didn't die? I don't think there was even the slightest chance he would.

I'm actually relieved that at least Berthold died for good and wasn't saved at the last minute by someone or something.

[Speed Blitz]

Spoiler for Just some predictions and theories (and I guess hopes as well) based on where we're at in the manga:

The Scouts are now within reach of that basement (and whatever that secret is inside of it) with nothing left to get between them. So hopefully, they'll just go straight to that. Then they can go back and recharge (and mourn the dead). And we can learn about whatever is in Ymir's letter.

Zeke, Reiner, and the Quadrupedal Titan will probably go to rescue Annie at this point. In that case, they may come across Historia and try to abduct her as well (hopefully they don't). Otherwise, they might as well just retreat.

I think Ymir is still alive, but like a prisoner on death row in the Hometown outside the walls, and that if they want to save her, they'll also have to hurry up and do something soon before it's too late. They can get a lot of answers from her, and her special titan shifting powers would make her a solid ally to their team.

Ymir might be a Jaeger (that would explain her titan form's pointy ears and monkey-like qualities), an Ackerman (that would explain her special Ackerman-like bond to one certain person), or both.

When Annie is free, she may become a big help later on, even if it's just as something like an anti-hero.

There will likely be a major war between the Wall people and the Hometown people.

The titans in the wall could become a major problem later.

Something big may ultimately happen that forces the Wall and Hometown people to put all their differences aside and work together as one (lest both sides die separately as 2). Like, maybe a master manipulator and master planner is working in the shadows and waiting for a chance to destroy everyone and everything, and he ultimately gains the power to do just that (some kind of ultimate power, like maybe even an uber titan form), and the final battle could be against that certain someone, and Eren and Levi could have an epic moment together where they gain other kinds of ultimate power (like other uber titan forms) that make them 2 the only ones qualified to fight against this final boss, thereby making them everyone's last hope, (kind of like Sonic and Shadow at the end of Sonic Adventure 2).

It seems the manga creator is considering doing the ending he had in mind at the start of the manga. If so, it looks like everyone (or almost everyone) could end up dying. I'm hoping at least Eren (the main character) and maybe even Levi (the most popular character) and I suppose Historia (in theory, since she's queen of the walls and should logically be in the inner parts of the walls and far away from where all the fighting takes place) survives, and humanity is saved. Not that literally all the characters die, and humanity gets wiped out or anything like that. Maybe they could even find a way to also save some of the mindless titans and turn them back into humans without sacrificing innocent human/titan-shifter lives.

It will also be interesting to see the separation of Eren, Armin, and Mikasa that Isayama Hajime has talked about doing. Perhaps the Eren x Mikasa and Eren x Armin ships have even been sunken. If that's the case, then Eren really can end up single and left open as far as shipping is concerned. I hope. He's honestly the kind of person that would be better off being kept single, and this is a franchise that doesn't really care about romance anyways.

[Jmariofan7]

Originally Posted by Semblance_of_Power

The comment you're quoting was before the latest chapter.

Nevertheless I still consider the outcome as safe and risk averse given the context of the situation; a desperate battle against overwhelming odds results in the death of a single, secondary character and a villain that seems closer in his role to a foot soldier than to a general.

AoT has/had a reputation (perhaps a really undeserved one in retrospective) as a mix of horror and fantasy elements with a semi "realistic" outlook on the realities of war, in which people (even the good characters we like) are facing a serious risk of death when facing life and death situations.

When you have a type of battle like this one, presented as one of desperation against superior forces, and your casualty rate looks like this:

Actual, named characters from the "good" side: less than 10%.

Random, nameless grunts: around 99%.

Then I'm sorry but I think the author is playing it really safe.



This is a show heavy on the fantasy/scifi and by extension he can come up with whatever titan power he wants and say it was always there and it was just recently revealed. However, It doesn't necessarily make it good storytelling.

And I was referring more to things like Zoe's miraculous survival while being protected by the plot armor of semi relevant characters, I mean, being the only one pushed behind a wall at the last second which seems to save people from massive explosions at short range.



Would either of them enter a top 10 of most relevant characters? certainly not, top 20? maybe Marco if we're being rather generous.



1) A matter of opinions, you may find the current pace acceptable, I find it unacceptably slow. I personally think that for a story to have true artistic integrity then it must have a defined starting point, a climax and an ending and while the path towards there may change along the way, it shouldn't do so due to factors besides storytelling.

Given that I personally find the rate of plot advancement to have gone significantly down since the anime adaptation and explosion in popularity, I can only conclude that there are external factors motivating this change.

2) Again, casualty rates:

Actual, named characters from the "good" side: less than 10%.

Random, nameless grunts: around 99%.

If that's not playing it safe with a story then I don't know what is.




It was specially noticeable with episode 9 of the last season, while arguably the most cinematic episode in TV history, comparable in it's visual and production qualities to many blockbuster movies, it was also written and set up as a blockbuster movie, meaning almost any sense of logic, strategic considerations, military realism or internal logic for the actions of many characters were thrown out the window. I could write a long post about it but it would be far too much off topic for this thread.

And at this point the show has very little in common with the books except for the broadest of plot points, there are many large plot points and characters that have been completely dropped and many remaining plots have take very different routes that future books essentially cannot take.

Mr. Martin may have told the showrunners the grand picture of what happens but the path there curently is and will likely be completely different.



Those elements could have been woven back into the story in any number of ways, but doing so without Eren would have implied a break from the conventions of most traditional forms of storytelling. Which is, to a good degree, what Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire does by killing we know who at the end of season/book 1.

Hence, I find the comparisons between the two works to be rather inane, since AoT adheres to a much higher degree to the traditional chiches of dramatic storytelling.

I'd hardly call Erwin "secondary", and we've know for quite a while that Bertolt "was a foot soldier" it was the moments when the beast Titan was introduced and when Bertolt confronted Eren and Ymir, and the foot soldier comparison is a really dumb one, considering how broken the colossal Titan's powers are. Regarding all the complaints about who's going to replace Erwin as leader of the Survey Corps, ummm, did everyone forget about a certain someone who was introduced in the very first chapter, and was the previous leader before resigning due to "certain events" and is now the instructor: SHADIS. It's obvious that Shadis is going to take up the mantel again.

You do realize that if we tried to give detail to almost EVERY SINGLE "GRUNT" this battle would have gone on for MUCH LONGER, it's one of the reasons the Arrancar arc of Bleach ran for so long (though mostly due to the editors forcing Kubo to show almost every single fight, regardless of relevance and whom the opponent was, especially the Fraccion members, in it's full intirety and drag it out, and forcing more screentime on the captains that the fanbase were treating as Dracos in leather pants), and you've been complaining about the length quite a bit, so you're being a huge hypocrite, and you're completely missing the whole point of this and One Piece. All these things are connected.

Again, the Titan powers have been stated and forshadowed to have a lot to do with the brain and spinal cord, you have a very low attention to detail. Honestly lots of complaints are just due people having really low attention spans.


Zoe wasn't thrown behind a wall she was thrown inside a well, and she still lost an eye, so I'd hardly call it "miraculous", and PLEASE... stop using the term "plot armor" it's one of the laziest forms of critic ever, along with "Sue".

I'm getting so sick of seeing this dumb term get tossed around, I'm going to make one thing perfectly clear, EVERYONE has "plot armor" in a story until they kick the bucket, it depends on when, so it's a really pointless term.

Regarding Game of Thrones, one) Ned Stark didn't have a mysterious memory flashback that implied there was something more going on, two) you're acting like Game of Thrones had only one main character, Jon Snow, remember him? I don't see you complaining about Snow coming back from the brink of death, in Game of Thrones people have been revived.

And again this is only the halfway point of the series, I don't see people complaining about this from Harry Potter were only one major or notable character starting with book 4 (the midway point), dies near the end, and then with the seventh book, starts killing of major characters left and right, One Piece might do this as well.

[ninjastarforcex]

oh, hi there claymore world design

[Stark700]

Latest chapter is out and...

After so many years...finally basement reached! That's a new milestone imo right there.

[Brother Coa]

I was literally blown by the latest manga chapter.

Spoiler for Spoilers for chapter 85:

Inside basement they found 3 books, and in one of them one painting.

But it turns out that painting is not painting at all - Eren's father explained on the back of the painting how photography work, and that he comes from outside the walls where humanity is not destroyed.

Now you really have to wonder, who are the humans outside and who are the humans behind the walls?

[RobotCat]

Spoiler for Chapter 85:

Maybe they're in their equivalent of North Korea

[OH&S]

Spoiler for Chapter 85:

It's like M. Night Shyamalan's "The Village" all over again......

[Utsuro no Hako]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Spoiler for Spoilers for chapter 85:

Now you really have to wonder, who are the humans outside and who are the humans behind the walls?

The people inside the wall are ...

Spoiler for The Answer:

...descendants of Trump supporters. That's why they're all white.

Krista is the reincarnation of Ivanka, and the fake king was originally set up as a reality show.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

The people inside the wall are ...

Spoiler for The Answer:

...descendants of Trump supporters. That's why they're all white.

Krista is the reincarnation of Ivanka, and the fake king was originally set up as a reality show.

Spoiler for OR:

They are the deportees' descendants, since Zeke is clearly an American.

The reason the shifters hate wall people so much is because they still haven't paid for those walls yet.