"Ero" is not all there is to eroge

[Klashikari]

Just a reminder since we are at it:

Eroge: only about a game with sexual content. It is a label that involves -any- kind of game with +18 content. Therefore, you can call Kanon an eroge as much as Bible Black or any hardcore stuff from Alice soft
And that has nothing to do with the VN format, so long the game has erotic content, it has this label, that's it.

That being said, the fact a game is called Eroge doesn't mean it will have that kind of content from start to finish. For some reason new adaptations are quickly took with prejudice, despite people had no trouble with previous key or Type moon adaptation.


Edit: oh right, so tired I actually misread Nukige with Nakige (habit with original term, not in romaji OTZ). At least eroge term may be useful here (since Yosuga no Sora brought up a very annoying discussion *sigh*)

[Soviet]

I just wish for more interesting erogame adaptions. How about Baldr Sky? It's a goddamn cyberpunk-mecha-epic. But no, all we ever get is stuff like fuckin' Campanella, Kiss on my Deity or Princess Lover. Pure love crap from studios like Akabee-Soft, Feng or Windmill, with super long-winded badly written dialogue that goes nowhere or loses itself in really bad humor. Pure Hentai OVAs are really the best thing one could do with source-material like this. Sure as hell beats these 13-episode blue-balling ecchi anime that have no real story to tell.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

There are VNs out there that really have little value outside of the sex (nukige is the term for them), but there are more that have a great story with great characters - and that's why there are many anime eroge adaptations.

I don't think thats true at all. There are more nukige being released each month than the "story"-kind of eroge.

What keeps these story-eroge from having hot sex-scenes anyway? I mean sure, they are not the focus, but if the makers of the VN are going to waste resources on the voice-acting and the CGs without making it fappable...I don't know, whats the point? Implied sex would be enough for character development, so release an all-ages version and be done with it.

[Triple_R]

After reading through this thread, I wonder if we should stop calling some of these game/visual novel adaptations "eroges" (I already feel that "eroge" hardly fits Clannad, but that's a slight tangent).

If a game/visual novel source material is mostly about explosive action-adventure or platonic romance (for lack of a better term, perhaps) or something non-sexual, and simply happens to have some sex scenes in it, is "eroge" really the best classification term for that?

I mean, plenty of Hollywood movies have sex scenes in them, but they're promoted as "action flick", or "sci-fi", or "horror" or "comedy"; the sex scene is just part of the movie, and not the focus of it, so you wouldn't label the movie as "erotica" first and foremost. I mean, some of the classic 80s action flicks had sex in them; should we call them "erotic" movies? Or is it better to call them "action" movies?

Sadly, I've seen some "eroge adaptations" get a pass from some anime fans because they think that these eroges, like most porn movies, have paper-thin plots. Perhaps the term "eroge" itself is giving some people the wrong impression.

Just something to think about.

[PhoenixG]

Well Clannad isn't an eroge, as there is no 18+ material in it. IMO eroge just lable games that has 18+ material in it, doesn't matter how much. Besides the eroge lable it has also a lable in what kinda genre it fits (like fantasy, comedy, etc).

[Khu]

Key's works aren't focused on the erotic things, hence the name visual novel/kinetic novel.

Some others...wouldn't say so much. But even then, at least 50% have some decent plot, even if it is just to cover until the sex.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

After reading through this thread, I wonder if we should stop calling some of these game/visual novel adaptations "eroges" (I already feel that "eroge" hardly fits Clannad, but that's a slight tangent).

As said, Clannad is not an eroge. An eroge is a subclass of a visual novel.

If a game/visual novel source material is mostly about explosive action-adventure or platonic romance (for lack of a better term, perhaps) or something non-sexual, and simply happens to have some sex scenes in it, is "eroge" really the best classification term for that?

I mean, plenty of Hollywood movies have sex scenes in them, but they're promoted as "action flick", or "sci-fi", or "horror" or "comedy"; the sex scene is just part of the movie, and not the focus of it, so you wouldn't label the movie as "erotica" first and foremost. I mean, some of the classic 80s action flicks had sex in them; should we call them "erotic" movies? Or is it better to call them "action" movies?

Sadly, I've seen some "eroge adaptations" get a pass from some anime fans because they think that these eroges, like most porn movies, have paper-thin plots. Perhaps the term "eroge" itself is giving some people the wrong impression.

Just something to think about.

That's where my misinterpretations came from as well. When White Album first started I thought an eroge's point was sex. I soon learned that was not true. This past summer I played my first VN, Fate/stay night, which is an eroge. I was a little weary to check out VNs but I learned that F/SN did not have a lot of sex scenes and you can tell when they are coming if you play the voiced version.

I think the term eroge should be thrown out the window myself.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If a game/visual novel source material is mostly about explosive action-adventure or platonic romance (for lack of a better term, perhaps) or something non-sexual, and simply happens to have some sex scenes in it, is "eroge" really the best classification term for that?

As weird as it may be, it is the correct classification, but the issue is that the term eroge is mistaken as the broad term for either bishoujo game or sex romp. You call a +18 stuff as long there is that kind of stuff, however minimal it is right? it is the same for eroge.

I mean, plenty of Hollywood movies have sex scenes in them, but they're promoted as "action flick", or "sci-fi", or "horror" or "comedy"; the sex scene is just part of the movie, and not the focus of it, so you wouldn't label the movie as "erotica" first and foremost

Of course, you don't call that a "porn movie" in that case. But the "age restriction" will be set appropriately. Even if there is no theme about sex, it -does- contain that kind of content. If you were to see a a clear sexual intercourse, that movie will definitely be stuck with the +18 restriction no matter how short it is.

Sadly, I've seen some "eroge adaptations" get a pass from some anime fans because they think that these eroges, like most porn movies, have paper-thin plots. Perhaps the term "eroge" itself is giving some people the wrong impression.

I think it is not only a misuse of words, but expectation and knowledge about that. As I stated before, for some reason, if you say that a new adaptation is from an eroge, people will jump on the gun, whereas magically, there is no reaction if you mention Air or Shuffle were eroge to begin with.
It is more a matter of bias and interpretation which don't really work that well together. Likewise, some people are using "dating sim" for weird reason, while you arguably not in something similar to Love Plus or Tokimeki memorial.

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

As said, Clannad is not an eroge. An eroge is a subclass of a visual novel.

Wrong. Eroge is not a subclass of a visual novel at all. An eroge may not be a VN altogether.
A plain example: Rapelay is not a VN, yet it -is- an eroge. As explained already, it is just a game with ero content, nothing more, nothing less. If we imagine a second that an original touhou game had ero content, it would be an eroge, yet not a VN but a shoot'em up.

VN and Eroge are both a "label" for a game, as VN is the description of the visual format and "gameplay", while eroge is the description of "content". It is obvious that a majority of eroge are VN, but that's all.
That said, the good thing is that "hentai game" is less and less favored, considering its misuse (same as Otaku in fact).
If you really want to talk about that specific kind of game (that people often call them dating sim for some reason) that may or may not be an eroge, Bishoujo game is prolly your best bet.

However, it is sort of ludicrous to ignore the original label of a game: instead of following people trying to stigmatize the "eroge" term, it would be more constructive to use it with a pertinent timing and context.

[DragoZERO]

Okay, so basically, if you take any kind of game and add ero content, it turns into an eroge? For example, if you take Tetris and throw a CG at the end of each level, it becomes an eroge.

Someone needs to come up with new words here.

[Klashikari]

Correct, that would be how this label is used. That is the reason why eroge term can be switched with "+18" as simple as that.

As for that use being sort of odd: Well, that is because you have to consider the context of the word: it is a japanese word, with its own context of use (even if it is a portemanteau of 2 english words to begin with).

I agree that if you were to literally take it as "erotic game", from a western point of view, almost everyone would have the very same idea what kind of game it is.
That being said, Japanese have their very own kind of vocabulary that may not work if taken directly in english (like onomatopia words and so forth: tsundere cannot be translated because of that, etc).

This is also the very reason why a lot of other words are really used in a very odd way by the western community: hentai, otaku, etc etc.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

Okay, so basically, if you take any kind of game and add ero content, it turns into an eroge? For example, if you take Tetris and throw a CG at the end of each level, it becomes an eroge.

Someone needs to come up with new words here.

To add to what Klashikari stated, you can think of the eroge classification as a label for what kind of stores carry such games, and where they are located in the store.

There are lots of kinds of games that fit the category without being visual novels (mahjong, shooters, rpgs, etc.), and the reason is that computer games simply don't sell unless they're eroges.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Soviet

I just wish for more interesting erogame adaptions. How about Baldr Sky? It's a goddamn cyberpunk-mecha-epic. But no, all we ever get is stuff like fuckin' Campanella, Kiss on my Deity or Princess Lover. Pure love crap from studios like Akabee-Soft, Feng or Windmill, with super long-winded badly written dialogue that goes nowhere or loses itself in really bad humor. Pure Hentai OVAs are really the best thing one could do with source-material like this. Sure as hell beats these 13-episode blue-balling ecchi anime that have no real story to tell.

There have been a few attempts to make anime out of storyline intensive VNs. The problem with them is that unless the game happens to be made by someone like Type-Moon or Key, they're subject to the same budget and episode count constraints that non-story VNs are subject too (Per volume DVD sales tend to go down the longer a series is). The only difference is that it's harder to do the source material justice. And history suggests that the studios that try are quite likely to get for their efforts is a) a lot of bitching from fans about the changes they had to make to the material and b) poor sales - Umineko and the second season of EF (the first actually managed to please the fans) are graphic illustrations.

Don't get me wrong, there's quite a few storyline-heavy VNs I'd love to see get adaptations, but looking at the economics of it I don't think I'd be anymore enthusiastic to invest in such a project than the companies involved are.

Also, speaking as someone who is a fan of ultra-cutest romantic stuff and storyline oriented stuff, I can't say I'm too big on the idea of replacing the former with H OVAs (although sex scenes can also be very cute and romantic if executed properly). That being said, Tayutama is the only one of the three listed anime adaptations I actually liked.

[Malkuth]

I am extremely negative to removing sex from eroge. Considering TYPE-MOON, removing sex (whether scenes or references) would completely change the stories, e.g.

• HF, makes zero sense without the sex scenes (as presented in Realta Nua).
• Again from Fate, just implying what actually happened during the infamous Saber's Recharge confused a lot of non-anime/game viewers ... they begun understanding by the character development that followed, and actually found it quite stupid and forced at first (before I explained the original content).
• Same is true for the CG dolphin of UBW, though that movie had more serious problems with pacing and storytelling.
• Fujino@Rakkyo would have no motivation without the rape, group-sex, and abuse.
• Same more or less is true for Kohaku@Tsukihime.

I understand that many times it seems superfluous, but it adds to the adult (non-sexual) themes handled by the titles.

Also don't confuse the actual games with extras and fan-disks, we are talking about the former, since the later are just for fan-service (like Shiro's dreams, etc).

Same argument goes for gore in Nitro+ games and Muv-luv. Removing these elements will broaden the audience by incorporating all the conservative elements of society, but will limit the scope of storytelling to Naruto/Bleach levels.

That being said, I also understand that the vast majority of eroge, have sex just for the sake of it, like gonzo porn. Best example here is Key, they want to say epic corny tales, but without sex in their first games none would have ever bothered. Then when they became known, they just reshuffled the characters and published the same story by removing the sex scenes ... which they had to put back when presenting original material (I am refering here to Air->Kanon->Clannad->Tomoyo chain).

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

I am extremely negative to removing sex from eroge. Considering TYPE-MOON, removing sex (whether scenes or references) would completely change the stories, e.g.[LIST][*]HF, makes zero sense without the sex scenes (as presented in Realta Nua).[*]Again from Fate, just implying what actually happened during the infamous Saber's Recharge confused a lot of non-anime/game viewers ... they begun understanding by the character development that followed, and actually found it quite stupid and forced at first (before I explained the original content).

I'm not going to talk about HF, because it's entire plot is for mature audiences. With regards to Fate, they could have gone about it differently. I have no idea what the anime writers were thinking to be honest. Sex is not just an act, it means something and there are other things you can use to replace it's meaning. While you can't achieve the same result as perfectly, it'll be better than an absurd CG dragon.


So many eroges do not need sex scenes, they are just there to make them sell, right? Is that the bottom line here guys?

[Klashikari]

Many of them, but as mentioned before, some of them have a purpose outside of being a mere sell ploint (that reminds me a lengthy discussion I had with Narona...)

There are themes and intimacy you can't exactly portray outside of these. Of course, that is a very rare occurence but it is possible (which is why the prejudice of such scenes is always a waste).
Not trying to say you have to read between the lines, but it is better to consider them as a case by case basis, instead of labelizing all of them as "they are just for market factor".

[Archon_Wing]

It's also possible to portray sex without having outright hentai. I feel like this is a rarity for whatever reason.

[Khu]

Well it is a rarity...precisely for the reason that even though you don't NEED outright hentai, it's 'usually' considered a bonus.

And yes, there are times where depicting sex is probably the only way you'll portray the deep character development...just that most times, that deep character development isn't there in the first place.

So, while the ero stuff isn't necessary, sometimes it does add to the plot, and character development.

Some would even, to some extent benefit from having those scenes (Clannad being an example; although not being to that extreme, perhaps a bit less sterility in the anime would have helped the romance. Even in the VN they only get 1 kiss.)

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

It's also possible to portray sex without having outright hentai. I feel like this is a rarity for whatever reason.

As far as I can figure out, there are three reasons of this to be rare:

• The creators aren't interested in telling stories which involve sex. For example, most anime nowadays are light romances where the endpoint of relationships stops well short of sex. Sex scenes are most effective in dramas, and they're not that common in anime.
  
• The target audience doesn't want to see any sex. There's a puritanical streak among at least a sizable portion of the otaku population. They are the reason why young seiyuu try to hide their relationships from the public, and it extends a bit to fictional characters as well.
  
• Censorship. TV stations have come down a lot harder on sexual content than in the past few years. The first case of "censor steam" that I can think of was Girls Bravo in 2004. Back then, the censorship was strongly criticized, but it's now considered routine. Moreover, most anime characters are teenagers, and the rules are a lot more stringent for young characters.

Originally Posted by Khu

Well it is a rarity...precisely for the reason that even though you don't NEED outright hentai, it's 'usually' considered a bonus.

And yes, there are times where depicting sex is probably the only way you'll portray the deep character development...just that most times, that deep character development isn't there in the first place.

So, while the ero stuff isn't necessary, sometimes it does add to the plot, and character development.

Other than titillation, sex scenes fit into three broad categories.

• They absolutely critical to the plot, theme or characterization. In these cases, taking out the scene would require a major rewrite of the work. An example of this is Kimi ga Nozomu Eien.
  
• They are important, but they can still be changed without hurting the story too much. Usually, sex indicates a major change in the intimacy between characters, but it's possible to express this intimacy in other ways. An example of this is Fate/Stay Night where, if it weren't for being a matter of (semi-)faithfulness to the original source, the sex could have been something else.
  
• They can be removed without the audience being any the wiser. Usually, this is because they happen at the very end of the story; as the culmination of a relationship. Alternatively, they just aren't that important to the narrative or characterization. Most Key works and most eroge adaptations will go here.

It should be noted that sex scene not only don't have to be graphic, they don't necessarily have to show anything at all. Two that come to mind are the ones in Evangelion and Utena. The latter one is especially shocking and devastating even though there's no fanservice - in fact, it'd probably lose some of its impact if anything was actually shown.

[aohige]

meh.

Without good sex, I ain't plunking down any hard earned cash on an eroge.
I dislike nakige in general anyways, and crap that just sells on moe even more so.

I think the only eroge without good sex I tolerate was MuvLuv Alternative.
Yeah, it has to be awesome on THAT level for me to even consider buying an uber soft-core eroge.

And when I have to confront someone who goes on to preach 2 hours straight on literacy value of a nakige, I plug my earphones up and listen to my ipod. Preferably playing metal to drown out the noise.

..... And my first eroge was Chaos Angels on MSX2 back in the late 80s.
Most of you were either infants or still in daddy's sacks, no one can claim me a newbie in this field.