2003-12-18, 23:32
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Sunshine-Rainbows
Join Date: Dec 2003
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E's Otherwise Opening
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Taken from a.f.k's Episode 005 and Anime-Blitz's Episode 25: shinjitsu wo mitsukeru tame ni a.f.k. We're striving to discover the truth... 1) Subject and verb are implied. I chose a generic we for the subject and used striving, a verb which covers the majority of actions in a quest for truth to make the line a complete sentence. Anime-Blitz In order for us to find the truth... 1) Subject and verb are implied. A generic we, us, is used for the subject, and a verb is not used which makes the line an incomplete thought. - A simple literal translation would yield something along the lines of "To find the truth..." which is not a complete thought. The incentives to go either way are mostly subjective. yoru no nyuusu ga shirasenai nagasanai koto wa dore kurai aru? a.f.k. On the evening news... ...some things are never reported... never mentioned... Just how much is out there? 1) An "and" should be present between "reported..." and "never..." but just chalk that one up to style. Anime-Blitz How much is there, That the evening news doesn't tell, And refuses to report on? 1) Words in the middle of a sentence are not capitalized. 2) The third line lacks a subject, thus a comma at the end of the second line is misplaced. dare ga ushinai dare ga te ni ireteru ka? dare no tame na no ka? a.f.k. Who's going to be the one who loses? Who's going to be the one who wins it all? Who is this all for? 1) Literal translation for the second line would be "Who's going to obtain (implied)?" Based on the preceding line, "...wins it all" appeared to carry an approriate weight to balance the three lines. Anime-Blitz Who will lose... ...and who will gain? And for who is it that we act? 1) For whom. 2) "For whom is it that we act" is awkward. Try "for whom do we act." 3) The "And..." is unnecessary because no transition is present between the second and third lines in the Japanese lyrics plus the second line ends with a question mark signifying a termination to the thought. jyunsui de iru no wa kirei de kiken na koto? a.f.k. The things that are pure... ...and beautiful... Aren't they dangerous? 1) The point is made, but this section fails to impress any significant message. Anime-Blitz Is continuing on this path, A beautiful thing, But still dangerous? 1) The addition of "But..." in the third line is appropriate for the context. 2) Jyunsui does not mean continuing. It would appear that the translation was based off the original incorrect romanji tsuzuiteru which I had for two episodes before obtaining official lyrics and was also present in various other fansubs. The discrepancy either shows that they changed from one set of romanji to another without fixing the translation, or they simply based their translation off a previous work. 3) Commas, etc. bokura wo meguru sekai wa sugata wo misenaide kinou to chigau shinjitsu wo oshitsukeru dake a.f.k. This world that envelops us... ...has not yet shown its true appearance. The truth that wasn't true yesterday... ...is being forced upon us. 1) The "true..." before appearance is added for effect. 2) The multiple "truths" are used for effect but sound awkward. Anime-Blitz The world we live in, Will never show it's colors. But only forces upon us, A truth different from yesterday's. 1) Capitalization and commas, etc. 2) "World we live in..." is a stretch 3) "...colors" is also a stretch. Colors only applies in this situation if used in the context "true colors." 4) "Its" not "it's." 5) "...never..." can possibly be explained as subjective, but it's incorrect. me no mae ni aru genjitsu no tezawari dake wa a.f.k. The truth before my eyes... ...is the only thing that I can touch. 1) Again, use of "...truth" for effect. 2) In Japanese, these two lines are actually only the first half of a sentence. However, staying in the style of matching each line of translation with each line of Japanese requires the use of lyrical license. Anime-Blitz The reality we can lay our eye's on, Is ready in front of us. 1) Eye's. Self-explanatory. 2) Misplaced comma, etc. 3) Me no mae is more symbolic than literal implying something "in front of your eyes" or before you. 4) "...ready" is a stretch from tezawari which implies tangibility. 5) "...reality... is ready in front of us" is awkward and fails to convey any coherent meaning. tashikana mono ni boku ga kaete miseru kitto a.f.k. I'll show you that it's certain. I'll show you that it's real. Definitely... 1) Literal translation for the first two lines here would be "I'll show you that I can change (preceding two lines) into something certain." Based on the style of matching line for line and the mechanics of grammar for American English, I stretched a little, and used the space to repeat the point twice for a little emphasis. Anime-Blitz It is the only thing I will change... ...to be more trusting a thing. Surely... 1) "...to be more trusting a thing." Now there's a line that doesn't make any sense at all. Yes, I would be biased, and no, I do not see how my translation would make "NO sense at all." |
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2003-12-19, 01:55
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Link #2 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 43
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Please, if you must compare the two, at least use a more recent version. There was some confusion, and if I remember right, the first version of ep25 ended up with an older version of the lyrics.
As with anything, nothing gets perfect ever, and there is room for interpretation(especially in songs.) but I do believe that we got the jist of it and that our last version of the intro was reasonably well done. |
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2003-12-19, 03:50
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Link #3 |
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What? I am washed up!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, England
Age: 39
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They are our new lyrics. I did the best with the translation I had at hand. I noticed how diffrent ours and yours was when comparing them, trying to edit, but I didn't really want to go completely off our translation. If you did the lyrics for the A.F.K. version, well, well done. Its the version that makes the most sense had uses the best English. It still however, makes no sense, as the song isn't meant to make sense. I also still think it can be confusing to translators, as the song is a weird song.
Aditionally: Oxford = the suck. English is all opinionated, and I've learned to hate that. I hate it because its mere opinions that we are foced to write in our exam papers, however, writing our own can kill us.... I'm sure I can argue for a few of my editing points later, but I'm going to school now :P |
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2003-12-19, 05:34
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Link #4 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Hmm, I think the song is supposed to make some sort of sense. I get the impression it's about how everyone has a different point of view on life. When our song translator (I'm part of Anime-Realm) was translating it, he said it was mainly the grammar that made translating it complicated:
PaSTE: Wow... this is tough stuff. PaSTE: For the sake of finding the truth Nikolai: What makes it tough? PaSTE: Mostly the fact that it doesn't like to follow regular Japanese grammar. PaSTE: The next part is hard, because it's a huge prepositional phrase... PaSTE: ...and it sounds silly in English. He came up with this: For the sake of finding the truth Which are the things the evening news doesn't know and can't broadcast? Who is the one who loses? Who is the one who profits? And who is it for? Isn't being pure a beautiful and dangerous thing? The world around me doesn't show its figure It only presses upon me a different truth from yesterday's The feeling I see in front of my eyes I will change into a reality I will show you Certainly I still think A.F.K.'s version is better than ours, though. 
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2003-12-19, 06:05
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Link #5 |
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r00t for life
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: /dev/null
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We did best we could if you don't like it then don't download it...<g>
We like to hear constructive critics, that way we can improve our releases. When you compare our first release (ES ep20) and our last release (ES ep26) you'll see that we got better and we are trying our best to improve our releases. Our encoder comes up everytime with better setting and his encodes have improved a LOT (he doesn't copy some other ppl settings....like some ppl I know). We do more QC these days and we go through grammar many times. With every release we get better, we don't sub for any other reason the to bring HQ fansubs to fans  Also it's really fun working in team. Well if you want a race...then here are results: You have released ep26 long before we did and still we have 1500 downloads where you have ~500! I wish you'd stop this stupid argument and get on with your life. We don't claim to be any better then other groups...we just do our best! Last edited by Forse; 2003-12-19 at 07:36. |
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2003-12-19, 08:43
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Link #6 | |||||||
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What? I am washed up!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, England
Age: 39
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Okay. Now I'm going to reply to this properly, in a nice a way as I can. Eg, I'm not flaming or anything, I'm seriously replying to this :P
I consider myself to be a writer and as such I do take English at "A-Level"(A-Level= Stupid shity English course we take before University, broken into 2 years, I'm in the second year) and do learn about technical aspects of English, but as such when writing in my opinion; Something sounding good/having the effect you want it to have (in your opinion) >>>> ALL rules of grammer and English (an example of where to break "ALL" rules might be in humour. Allthough "ALL" is a bit of a overexageration, but I would say I'd break any rule for a good laugh). My writing style focus' on a more simple style (partly due to my lazyness in writing, so I keep it simple). I am learning about some of that technical crap in school and I am starting to use a bit of it in my fansub works, but mostly this is just identifying things I'd already been useing before and relising I was using them :P Now you've looked at A.F.K.s text (I must admit I AM a fan of A.F.K. and I love they're work and its a great shame they seem to be inactive now) and ours in a very... I'd say technical and petty way. And I just want to comment back on some of your stuff and say why I did some stuff or why I interpreted it that way. I'd also note that below, is my biased opinion. Just like Strato's post and analysis is his opinion, I do not like to look at writing in such a way (well I do, I just dont like to think about my OWN writing that way. Its depressing as a Terry Pratchett imitator). Now first of all here is the original translation I edited our second Eng lyrics from (I did this as I was disapointed with our first set of lyrics, check 20-25, I did these around ep 23 or so, but they didn't get used, argh) (romaji cut due to word limit, ask if you want tosee it) In order to find the truth... Things that the night news don't show how much is there? who loses and gains? Continuing is a beautiful and dangerous thing. The world we live in doesn't show its self it just lets us know yesturday's different truths the reality in front of my eyes is the only thing i will make real. hopfully Now as you can see, the English used here is rather vague and uninspired, at least in my opinion. Its a dramatic song, so I wanted to put a bit more umpth in my lyrics. This is going to be long, but I'd like to comment on it all so... (quotes cut down on due to word limit, I'm sure you can cross referance) Quote:
I admit I cant see a verb in my sentance. I guess "find" acts as the sort of verb. But as you can see, its quite close to the original translation. Also, I dont really give a crap about subjects and verbs in that way. If the line sounded good, which it did to me and made sense, which it did and also conveyed as much of the original meaning from our translation as possible, which it did, then all is well. I'm happy with that line completely. I think our line is perhaps a little more dramatic, as we used "in order for us", where AFK (get really tired of typeing out their name, as much repsect as I would give them by doing so, heh) used simply "striving". Lengthening it out into several shorter words, make it more dramatic and also a more simple idea for the viewer to consume. The meaning is also diffrent, my line states that we will DEFINATELY find the truth and we must do X action "in order" to do so. AFKs line says we're TRYING to find the truth, but gives no information on whether we will or not. This is generally how I look at writing. The sub text plays a large part in my own writing and how I try to edit our scripts. That was also mean talking crap. Which is good, it's a skill I need to brush up on for our English exams next year  Quote:
The subject of the third line is the evening news. I had some trouble with this line as I was confused about what our translation was saying, especially when checked against other translations. And the comma is because the sub changes. Its a habbit of mine to put SOMETHING there when a sub changes (me = timer/typesetter too) and I went with a coma insted of "..." which would have been more proper. If I had to do that now it'd probebly get "...". I think I'd be using "..." a LOT recently, so I kinda got "board" of it. Allthough a comma there I woulden't say was 100% wrong. Allthough definately pushing it... Quote:
Who will gain - gain everything. Win. Which is Yuuki obveously - last man standing I kept these lines short as the Japanese is short/said quickly. I also thought the shortness of these lines made them more dramatic. The "and" at the start of the sentance adds more emphasis to the line. "For who is it that we act" works, but I'd use a "and" there to add more emphasis. Kind of like, "Just WHO is it that we are acting for anyway?" would be another way of adding emphasis (allthough not at all suited to the context of the song). I changed whom to who because whom sounded awkward to me. It's a rather formal word, not used too much these days. I'd only use "whom" is the person was speaking in a very formal/oldish English way. I also used "for who is it THAT WE ACT" because "DO WE ACT" sounded weird on the day. Kcl (our other editor agreed) that "DO we act" sounded weird too and that "that we act" was better. I think it was just one of those random weird things that happens to your English sometimes. Quote:
I was VERY confused by what our script was saying here, but I have a little fondness for the English I used (even if the translation is pretty much WRONG). Our translation said "continueing", so I thought "walking a "path" commen theme in anime, what the hell" I'd use the comma on the second line possibly even if it was purely on a one line form, in writen text (eg not a subtitle). A comma indicates a pause in reading to me, so it can be used as its meant to be used, but imo also to make a line stronger or more dramatic. Also, I think it affects the register somewhat, as using lots of commas in text (on the internet), can be considered formal (I kinda loosen up on grammar like commas when talking to close freinds online, funny that. One of my current "topics of thought", I suppose). And yes, unfortunately we didn't have the official lyrics. E's 20-26 were VERY hit and miss for us. We're still not stabilised even now as a group... Quote:
And while "colours"(lets use the just plane better English spelling :P) is a stretch, I think it suits the context. Allthough "true appearance" is more literal and probebly right, I think "true colours" fits fine enough to me. Subjective - I'm not sure what that means, so allow it. I could look it up... but I cant be bothered. I'm sure my teacher have talked about it before and I should know it, but again, bugger that for a game of soldiers. "Its" - yes it is its. f-ing possesives. Quote:
And lets not even bother. I sat here staring at our translation for ages asking it "wtf are yoo talking about?!?!?1"(for lack of better words). I also did the "eye's" here heh. We at least fixed that for ep26... Again, AFK = the men. Quote:
Well, I was board, so they're my comments on why I wrote lines in the way I did. I am a little annoyed by you analysing my lines that way, as I decided last year when doing Poetry in college, "if any little bastard comes along and does this to my writing, I shall be more than pissed" (well "slightly annoyed", but I'm not putting that in a quote from me, haha). And I'm sure your translation makes sense. It's the song that lacks in it. I originally said its a good test of a translation since, when come across with this you have to think "what? Am I hearing/translating this correctly!?" (perhaps). I'd go and dig up the translations our other two translators made of the song, but alas. I'm a lazy bastard. And sorry about all the typos and lack of sense in THIS post. I've actually proof read for once and corrected some stuff... THIS TIME!-_- It was actually intresting reading what you posted. I do like my English, and I enjoy a good read heh. Or something... |
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2003-12-19, 08:47
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Link #7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Quote:
To someone who has no affiliation with any of the groups doing E's Otherwise, just a post like that can really make one wonder whether you are doing it for fun of bringing HQ subs out...or to say we're faster and get more downloads. Where did it ever say that bringing HQ subs out to the fans should be equated with speed and downloads? If you wanted to bring in pure numbers...a.f.k. has released more than anime-blitz, has done more series and more total downloads (if you count their FMoS, Princess Tutu, Spiral and E's). Just one of their later eps of FMoS would probably beat the number of downloads of all your E's Otherwise. But then, that's just me digressing. |
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2003-12-19, 08:54
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Link #8 |
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r00t for life
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: /dev/null
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@drvtech I was replying to nikolai post, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Anyway We are not fast...AR released long before we did
Anyway I hope this topic will get closed soon since it isn't going anywhere  P.S. This is why there are many fansubbing groups...so it's up to you what group to go with
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2003-12-19, 13:32
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Link #9 | ||
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Sunshine-Rainbows
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Just to clarify that the song does indeed make sense: shinjitsu wo mitsukeru tame ni We're striving to discover the truth... Refers to Kai's struggle to unravel the lies which he had accepted until leaving Ashurum. Incidents range from his denial of the brainwashing of Espers by Ashurum in Chapter 7 to his acceptance of what Eiji and Ashurum truly are in Chapter 45. yoru no nyuusu ga shirasenai nagasanai koto wa dore kurai aru? On the evening news... ...some things are never reported... never mentioned... Just how much is out there? Refers to media cover-ups such as the labeling of the destruction during the fight with the Branded as an accident in Chapter 10, Ghibellini declaring the next Pope to be selected by election due to the absence of the present Pope, failing to mention the death and written will of Martinus XIV, although the roman numeral on the will says XIII so that would be a mistake on Satoru-sensei's part, and the fake Eiji in Chapter 50. dare ga ushinai dare ga te ni ireteru ka? dare no tame na no ka? Who's going to be the one who loses? Who's going to be the one who wins it all? Who is this all for? Refers to the fact that whenever a conflict ultimately yields a winner and a loser. Punctuated by an extra, "So why the hell are we fighting?" It's possible that the switch to Shin-lu is supposed to answer that question, but realistically, that answer would only apply to Shen-long. jyunsui de iru no wa kirei de kiken na koto? The things that are pure... ...and beautiful... Aren't they dangerous? Most obvious reference would be Maria. She's got the pure and beautiful down, and she tries to kill Kai a few times. Also could refer to more generalized instances. For example, fire can exist in a pure state in nature and be a beautiful thing to behold yet its danger is undeniable. bokura wo meguru sekai wa sugata wo misenaide kinou to chigau shinjitsu wo oshitsukeru dake This world that envelops us... ...has not yet shown its true appearance. The truth that wasn't true yesterday... ...is being forced upon us. Similar to the line about the news. Basically, it refers to the untold truths out there, and the lies being fed to the masses. me no mae ni aru genjitsu no tezawari dake wa The truth before my eyes... ...is the only thing that I can touch. Refers to the fact that the only thing we can truly accept as real is what we can touch and what we can see with our own eyes. tashikana mono ni boku ga kaete miseru kitto I'll show you that it's certain. I'll show you that it's real. Definitely... This line just continues by saying that I will prove to you and the world that it truly is real. So yes, this song makes sense. |
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2003-12-19, 16:55
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Link #10 |
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Queen of the Underworld
 Fansubber
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Somewhere in Hell
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I believe that translation always changes the actual meaning of the song itself, since it all depends on the translator on how to descipher its meanings from the original language. There are words in the japanese vocabulary that are not in the english language, thus leaving those words up to the translator to descipher.
As for the version of Anime-Blitz being unaccurate-every single group has their own interpretation of anything that is translated. It all depends on the translator. I'm a music major myself so I know the value of the lyrics and the music. But when you have somebody else translating it, it is harder for the other person to enjoy the lyrics more for there are bound to be changes. Unless we learn the language, that will always happen.
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2003-12-19, 21:11
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Link #11 |
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Sunshine-Rainbows
Join Date: Dec 2003
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In response to kcl822:
It's not interpretation when parallels can be drawn between the lyrics and the content of the show. Certainly, interpretation can be subjective, but a viewer with a comprehensive understanding of the show should recognize that few if not one interpretations are possible. After all, the opening is not just a song in itself, but a work responsible as an introduction and gives viewers a taste of what to expect. Translation should not change the meaning of a song. Naturally, different words may be used since as mentioned, some words in the Japanese language are not in the English language. However, it is possible to make up a bunch of lines in your own words and still effectively convey the overall point of a song. It's always good to at least try to stay close to what the original lyricist had though, of course. Also, I never once said Anime-Blitz's translation was inaccurate excepting the jyunsui line which is indeniably incorrect. I am merely responding to the claim that the lyrics for Jouhou do not make sense. |
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2003-12-19, 21:52
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Link #12 |
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ナマケモノ
Join Date: Jul 2003
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Not all songs are made especially for a particular anime. Most anime songs I've come across make no sense at all. Take Naruto's 3rd ED for example...that song makes no sense at all and it makes no reference to naruto either. Sometimes, you're just fooling yourself into thinking it has any meaning.
[Edited out Matrix parallel since it doesn't really parallel hehe] Last edited by Enragin_Angel; 2003-12-19 at 22:16. |
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2003-12-19, 23:00
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Link #13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
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Quote:
 Who wants a race? I made a post about the translation of the opening theme...didn't mention anything about releases. I'm not surprised A-Blitz has more downloads; you're a more established group anyway.
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2003-12-20, 00:25
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Link #14 | |
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Triad's Friendly Editor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 43
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Naturalizing the dialogue (or lyrics, in this case) to fit the situation is the job of a good editor. Nitpicking their lyrics by saying that it doesn't use proper grammar just seems kind of petty to me. Though not as petty as something like arguing that "Words in the middle of a sentence are not capitalized." I suppose you've never considered that songs can be considered poetry set to music, and everyone knows that poems never ever ever begin each line with a capital letter! |
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2003-12-20, 06:02
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Link #15 | |
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What? I am washed up!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: London, England
Age: 39
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heh... LordBrian, I edit based largely on context and what register the characters speak on (register = mostly how formal/informal they speak, though sale mans blurb on a register in itself). For instance, in the last episodes of E's Otherwise, I tried to give Yuuki a move laid back speech style, as from what I know of him, it seems as though he woulden't use formal speech. With Eiji, it seemed he liked to speak slightly more formal and use confuseing words randomly without explanation ("It's a transmiting device". "A what!?"). As I said, Oxford can go blow me. The rules of grammar imo are optional to effect and if the sentance sounds good and is understandable perfectly. Whom = formal. I'd never put whom in one of our fansubs unless the character was speaking formally, or in older English. |
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2003-12-20, 13:15
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Link #16 |
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Triad's Friendly Editor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 43
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Well, at least we can still disagree on something. To an English major, the OED is an even holier tome than the MLA handbook, and I prefer to abide by whatever it says is correct when dealing with, well, any sort of writing that isn't spoken (or written) dialogue, which is well known for having all sorts of weird and nonstandard rules.
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2003-12-20, 16:53
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Link #17 |
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Sunshine-Rainbows
Join Date: Dec 2003
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In response to Enragin_Angel:
Naming exceptions does not indicate that the opening for E's Otherwise was not written with the intention of drawing parallels between the lyrics and the show. And no, I would not be fooling myself into believing since I cited numerous examples. Feel free to disprove those if you would like. In response to LordBrian: Yes, I would agree that the use of whom in speech sounds awkward. As you can see, my line was Who is this all for? Beginning that line with a "whom" would be the grammatically correct choice but would break the flow of the song. However, Anime-Blitz's line is And for who is it that we act? The structure chosen in that line already carries a tone that does not match casual spoken speech in which case, the grammatically correct choice would be correct. And no, saying that words in the middle of a sentence should not be capitalized is not petty. Just because poets believe themselves to be above the rules of grammar does not mean that fansubbers are. We aren't writing prose here, and the novelty of playing with capitalization in poetry is, in my opinion, a rather hollow device. And no, I don't edit normal speech in this fashion seeing as how I am not an editor. In response to SirCanaealot: It's rather simple to write off my analysis with the cliche, "You can draw parallels between anything," but did you ever even bother trying to relate the song to the show? If you think the relation is all in my head, feel free to prove it. Apparently, the reason this post was created in the first place has been ignored. I only addressed this song because a certain individual stated on this board that my translation made no sense at all. I am merely responding to that claim. |
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2003-12-20, 20:46
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 43
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2003-12-20, 21:39
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Lives under a bridge
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Anyway, I think I may be starting to drift off-topic, so let me try and state my opinion clearly: My approach to the scripts I edit is quite simple... I believe there are limits to which the subtitles should be localized to fit the speech of a character; just because a character speaks with some sort of accent does not mean the subtitles should try to emulate said accent. I believe subtitles should not draw too much attention... the viewer should be able to read them with a glance and go back to watching the animation. Altering correct grammar will only hurt people's ability to do this in a vast majority of situations. And as for "fitting the situation," I firmly believe the viewers are not stupid; they can feel the emotions in the Japanese dialogue, or notice, either through their own perception or from other characters' reactions, that something in the character's way of speaking is different from the way it was originally. I think that we, as editors, should leave that to the people watching the anime to decide for themselves. I don't think I need to put "SHOUTA!!!" when a character screams someone's name because the viewer can HEAR the character screaming, so a simple "Shouta!" would suffice just as well and be infinitely more readable. But perhaps that's just me. Quote:
... n00b. :P |
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2003-12-20, 22:59
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Triad's Friendly Editor
Join Date: Jul 2003
Age: 43
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