"Geneon USA" in credits DOESN'T equal a license!?

[NoSanninWa]

At Anime Boston this past weekend, I asked at the Geneon panel if every show co-produced by Geneon USA was automatically licensed by them. He promptly replied, "No." After a pause, he then went on to clarify that the contracts and negotiations for licensing are very complicated so they just can't be certain that they will get the license even if they are involved producing the show. In his words, "19 out of 20 times we are probably going to get the license if we co-produce, but not always."

Anime News Network paraphrases this answer briefly at the end of their Boston 2004: Geneon convention report.

Perhaps we should re-think our policy of listing a show as licensed just because it has Geneon USA in the credits. If we don't list all Gundam as licensed, we shouldn't list all Geneon USA productions as licensed. After all, we don't list Gundam as licensed by Bandai and that is very nearly certainly licensed. Perhaps we should be less certain about shows that Geneon USA has co-produced. This means that Hanaukyo Maid Tai La Verite and Tenjo Tenge might not be licensed!

What do people think about the standard of proof that we use to determine if a show is licensed? Should we continue to list these shows as licensed since 95% is pretty darn good, or should we change our policy because it really just isn't certain?

[emessen]

it would be a better policy in my opinion to host fansubs of a series until it is officially liscenced.... ie announced and published at a convention or magazine.. etc etc

granted it is HIGHLY likely... but it wouldnt be "illegal" until it is made official...

why dont u guys do that?

[Kamui4356]

I'd say 95% is good enough, if it seems like a series that would be brought over. I mean you can never be 100% sure about any license. Even if a company announces the license, the Japanese company that holds the rights could decide that they really don't like what the US licenser is doing with their series and yank the license.
Now if it's a series like Kanon or KGNE, with lower chances of actually being brought over, then maybe you could list it.

[microlith]

I've voiced my dissent with the listing of Gundam on here before (especially such talentless work as ripping HK bootlegs.) I'll continue to and I'll stick with the idea that stuff co-produced by Geneon USA is not fair fansub material.

And even if that one 1/20 case comes up that Geneon USA doesn't release something they funded, it will likely be licensed ANYWAY and released. Hanaukyo Maids will most likely come out. Tenjou Tenge will definitely come out. Even Licensed by Royalty, which many people I know blasted repeatedly, was funded and released by them.

I say the current policy is fine.

Just saw this...

but it wouldnt be "illegal" until it is made official...

Sorry guy, but it's already illegal. It's just a matter of close you're willing to cut it with the company's graces.

Of course seeing how many groups cut it today (never mind the DVD rippers,) I'd say that fansubbers will be the ones to wear out their welcome, and bring it crashing down on themselves.

[emessen]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Even if a company announces the license, the Japanese company that holds the rights could decide that they really don't like what the US licenser is doing with their series and yank the license.

that would result in butt loads of legal repercussions and cost the japanese
companies alot of money.. since a liscence is basically buying the rights to
distribute it and market it in a particular country... that means it's a legally beinding
contract... and breaking it would be a big no no.. unless u want to go through
litigation

and i put "illegal" in quotes because fansubbing in itself is already illegal this
i already know.. and it would be illegal.. but then you never knew when they got the
liscence... so say a fansub episode 14 was distributed b4 the liscence was actually
bought but 15+ were after...

point being you never know till they actually announce it so the harm is what?

you'd just pull it after it's made official don't ethical fansubbers drop a series
once it's been officially announced as being liscenced? until then it's jsut rumors right?

and since animesuki donest host the torrents but only links them... agn i ask
whats the harm in listing the titles until it's liscencced officially

[A Lamer]

I am of the opinion until they shout out "Hey nutspankers, we're liscensing and bringing <series> over here! Stop fansubbing!" from the rooftops, it should be allowed here on Animesuki. Well, perhaps not literally shouted from the rooftops, but actually announced.

[boneyjellyfish]

I say don't list them. 95% is good enough for me, and if I REALLY want to see them then I can just go to that other BT site.

[LynnieS]

Contracts can be broken provided there are provisions built into them for doing so. I really doubt that the animation studios will sign away their ownership to an ordinary distributor. Money will have to paid, but that's a small issue.

Existing rule is fine. Heck, I wish that I can get something offered at a 95% success rate... besides "death and taxes"!

[DekaMaster]

Ok so let's not have any anime listed here anymore. There is a 95% chance or greater every anime that is listed here will get licensed. If that is the logic you all are using animesuiki should promptly shut down and not list anything.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by emessen

that would result in butt loads of legal repercussions and cost the japanese
companies alot of money.. since a liscence is basically buying the rights to
distribute it and market it in a particular country... that means it's a legally beinding
contract... and breaking it would be a big no no.. unless u want to go through
litigation

As LynnieS said, the license agreements have clauses that allow the japanese company to pull them from foreign distributers. I doubt they would agree to any licenses without this. It's rumored that this is exactly what happened to One Piece. Of course that's just a rumor, and should not be considered as anything else.

Originally Posted by KingRanger

Ok so let's not have any anime listed here anymore. There is a 95% chance or greater every anime that is listed here will get licensed. If that is the logic you all are using animesuiki should promptly shut down and not list anything.

I think you've missed the point. A 95% chance of being licensed means it isn't licensed yet, thus should be listed. This thread is talking about there being a 95% chance that the series is already licensed, but hasn't been announced yet.

[emessen]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

As LynnieS said, the license agreements have clauses that allow the japanese company to pull them from foreign distributers. I doubt they would agree to any licenses without this. It's rumored that this is exactly what happened to One Piece. Of course that's just a rumor, and should not be considered as anything else.

just for reference... has there been any case where this has actually happened?

contracts can be argued... that's the beauty/ drawback (depening on how you look
at it) of contracts... a word here or there... a loophole can easily be found and
exploited... especially when in the case of international companies when language
differences can be argued...

but that's just speculation... i just want to know if this has actually ever happened
like u said... it's only a rumor with one piece...

and u actually miss the point of the thread... NoSanninWa stated that Geneon
said it is not 100% garunteed that a sereis they co-produce will be liscenced by
them...

it isnt about the series is 95% liscenced...

it is 95% chance that geneon usa will get it.. not that they have it

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

At Anime Boston this past weekend, I asked at the Ganeon panel if every show co-produced by Ganeon USA was automatically licensed by them. He promptly replied, "No." After a pause, he then went on to clarify that the contracts and negotiations for licensing are very complicated so they just can't be certain that they will get the license even if they are involved producing the show. In his words, "19 out of 20 times we are probably going to get the license if we co-produce, but not always."

Anime News Network paraphrases this answer briefly at the end of their Boston 2004: Ganeon convention report.

Perhaps we should re-think our policy of listing a show as licensed just because it has Ganeon USA in the credits. If we don't list all Gundam as licensed, we shouldn't list all Ganeon USA productions as licensed. After all, we don't list Gundam as licensed by Bandai and that is very nearly certainly licensed. Perhaps we should be less certain about shows that Ganeon USA has co-produced. This means that Hanaukyo Maid Tai La Verite and Tenjo Tenge might not be licensed!

What do people think about the standard of proof that we use to determine if a show is licensed? Should we continue to list these shows as licensed since 95% is pretty darn good, or should we change our policy because it really just isn't certain?

Ah, so you were the one who asked that question...
From my own con notes:
Q. Does geneon pay attention to other fan attention to other series before licensing:
A. at one point, it was true, 9 times out of 10, the rights are bought before with coproduced shows

Q. "If geneon co-prodcues the deal, does it always include the license"
A. "always is too concrete a term""so i will have to say no""as often as we can maybe"" soemtimes the right gets through us" (he used the example of manga having rights with bandai on gits:sac)

To me, this says "we try to secure it, but they may turn to sell it to someone else". Considering that only 1/10 are unlicensed, you dont know which. I would think it would be better to error on the side of not listing stuff and wait to see which 9 they have.

[NoSanninWa]

Actually, I am given to understand that 95% of all anime produced today is licensed before it ever airs. Because of the tightness of money for funding new anime the studios actually go to american licensing companies and offer to take them on as producers before anything is aired. They are forced to make these decisions before they ever get to see a single cell of new animation. Pioneer was rather disturbed to see all the smoking in L/R (that just isn't cool to air in America), but they had already had a contract that included the license, so they were stuck with it.

With so much anime licensed before it ever airs in Japan, I'd have to say that the big difference is that when Geneon USA is in the credits we know who is likely to be the licensor. Likely... but apparently not certainly.

[Somedude]

Sorta shakey ground. I don't see why it shouldn't be listed until it is officially licenced or announced in some manner.

I put it in the same area as series that are prettymuch licenced. It may not be prudent to work on them since it could likely be licenced midseason, however a lot of those series DO end up being listed.

[Griffith]

I think they should be listed. Shows like Naruto, One Piece, FMA, etc. WILL be licensed, it's just a matter of who and when. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be listed on the site, imo. I realize that with things like Tenjo Tenge the Geneon logo is there, but you may as well just imagine there being an American license logo on every show that generates thousands of downloads per episode in that case.

[Red HamsterX]

I feel very strongly that AnimeSuki should consider Tenjo Tenge licensed, even with this new information.

At 95%, coupled with Geneon's semi-recent acquisition of Ikkitousen, which many sources have told me to be a series of similar nature, I really can't see them not trying to put a solid licence in place.

[AG3]

I'd rather have them listed. Think about it this way; if every show that is almost certain to be licensed is removed from AnimeSuki, the site will list only very old and/or poor anime series. Everyone (including me) thinks that Full Metal Alchemist will be licensed, so should that be removed too?

For me, fansubs (and scanlations) are a way to preview future purchases. If AnimeSuki only lists anime series that are guaranteed NEVER to be licensed, what the heck is the point then?

[Somedude]

Originally Posted by Red HamsterX

I feel very strongly that AnimeSuki should consider Tenjo Tenge licensed, even with this new information.

At 95%, coupled with Geneon's semi-recent acquisition of Ikkitousen, which many sources have told me to be a series of similar nature, I really can't see them not trying to put a solid license in place.

Heh, I thought Ikkitousen was a rather odd licence choice for them.

Really, this discussion is just about the moral highground versus reality. Reality says that even though there is a strong chance the show may be licenced, it isn't yet. Also, it is still going to be readily obtainable in fansub, if not here than on that other site. I guess what it comes down to is that I draw the line at the announcement of licence. Anything before that should be fair game, as the speculation of licences will just drive some of us crazy.

[LynnieS]

Originally Posted by emessen

just for reference... has there been any case where this has actually happened?

There is this blurb on AoD:

Media Blasters Follow-Up (10:56 AM EST): According to emails and postings from people asking after the Media Blasters panel, Media Blasters has also had the contracts/licenses for Varoom One and Tales of Eternia canceled. There were reports last year of a few titles that for various reasons underwent this and the titles themselves have been slow to come about, as the other two known ones were Mao Dante and Mezzo TV.

The phrase "had the contracts/licenses ... canceled", if accurate, has the two series pulled out of Media Blasters's domain. Nobody should be able to do that, as far as I know, aside from the studio(s) themselves.

Maybe the mangaka who owns the title could? But I would think that the publishing company issuing the manga would first have the artist sign over ownership of the characters and concept and still keep the rights to the printed goods.

[flammie]

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

What do people think about the standard of proof that we use to determine if a show is licensed? Should we continue to list these shows as licensed since 95% is pretty darn good, or should we change our policy because it really just isn't certain?

I think if the show has U.S. funding, it means an American company has some form of rights to the show, and therefore the show shouldn't be on the site. It really is the rights holders' choice on whether or not they want to release it in NA. But hey, whatever works best for you guys.