Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Well, by this rationale, who cares who died from the WMD dropped on Windermere? We might have heard about specific victims in passing from Roid or one of the Aerial Knights, but they are very much "background fodder" and "not real characters" by your own standards.

Keith, Roid, Bogue, Cassim were all affected victims of that bomb. So they cared and took action about it. As did their King, Gramia, who was also a legit character. Freyja also cared, she lost her family and her village burned, but had a different goal from them. As did Hayate whose father was involved and died in that bombing. So uh, looks like a lot of the actual characters cared and were affected by that event. That was why that hole featured so heavily in both Openings.

Actual characters were directly affected by this. You can argue Chuck and his siblings got affected by the war, however, the ones who actually damaged his planet were the NUNS, conveniently.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So why should their lives be treated as any more valuable than the lives of the billions of people that Windermere hurt in one way or another? Why should Windermere's pain count more than the pain of Ragna or the pain of Voldor or the pain of Al Shahal?

Because there were characters who were actual members of the cast that did something about it, while all those faceless people you mention didn't have a representative except Chuck, who, you know, was angrier with the NUNS bombing than anything else. He didn't have a grudge with Windermere as you can see in the ending.

Again, you can't put the supposed feelings of imaginary characters above the goals and actions of the actual characters. It's bad writing. Period.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It shouldn't count more, unless we're supposed to believe that Windermere really is the galactic master race...

Dunno about galactic master race but Protoculture did create them as their Vajra wannabes to take the galaxy back from the brainwashed Zentraedi, apparently (wow my assumption was right). They wanted that system Roid pulled (didn't you see the way it worked and turned on was through runes only Windermerians possesses?). But that isn't the point here, the point is that the main characters and a lot of members of the active cast were affected by it in the past which is what is pretty much guiding their actions.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So you think Freyja would have objected to Heinz showing actual contrition and deep regret over all the blood he's shed and all the suffering he's caused on other planets with his own voice? Heinz handling the finale that way wouldn't have contradicted Freyja's goal whatsoever.

Heinz's final scene in this anime should have struck a very different note, in my view.

Why would Heinz regret something he didn't feel or see with his own eyes for? Anyway, he regretted the actions he did witness with his own eyes (the NUNS fleet blowing up). You're still asking a 9 years old kid to do abstract thought processes which is hilarious (it's impossible: protip). He reacts based on his personal experience he lives presently like any other nine years old kid would do.

Anyway, Heinz is the (living) character who experienced more loss in the entire show. I have no idea what kind of logic you use if you think he's not suffered enough or wasn't "punished".

[Convoy]

I'm mad that this show never had Heinz see the effects of the Var on actual people for a change. Coward kid king will get to keep his throne without knowing jack shit about what he wrought upon countless people who were nowhere near Windermere during Windermere's war of independence. Damn the writing.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Convoy

I'm mad that this show never had Heinz see the effects of the Var on actual people for a change. Coward kid king will get to keep his throne without knowing jack shit about what he wrought upon countless people who were nowhere near Windermere during Windermere's war of independence. Damn the writing.

Why should he care? He's not to blame for Var. That was:

1. Roid's plan. Established in episode 15. Roid is dead, killed by Keith.
2. Sanctioned by his father when Heinz didn't have any power over it. He was the one having doubts and all through the first half of the show, but Gramia and Keith told him to stop being so reluctant and sing. Gramia and Keith both died.
3. All his singing did was to put the raging var people under control (and make them surrender). He wasn't the one responsible for their berserker condition (heightened emotions trigger this). What he was responsible for? The bloodless take over of Voldor and Al Shahal, saving thousands of lives from an armed conflict.
4. If you really want to blame someone for the existence of Var, blame the ones who messed with the Vajra. Blame Grace, Leon and everyone involved in that mess of Frontier which made the Vajra leave the Galaxy (oh, weren't the NUNS again who arrived with their big bad cannons to blow the enemy as answer which drove them away and thus var was a consequence of their actions? Yup, once more the NUNS are the source of the actual problems if you dig enough! Truly Kawamori's favorite target ). That's how Var came to be and it's a legitimate epidemic across the galaxy which has nothing to do with Windermere's actions (Windermere only managed to discover how to infect people and, under Gramia, they targetted NUNS headquarters specifically). Read Macross Extra, the tie in between Frontier and Delta, to get more insight about Var.
5. Hey, in fact, when Heinz became king, the only var usage was to stop a NUNS fleet from attacking Windermere. Roid ditched var to use protoculture hive system experiment thing.

[Convoy]

Heinz isn't responsible for their berserker condition? What the hell? What do you call the first episode when Heinz sang in the sanctum and a violent frenzy broke out on Al Shahal?

Only use of Var under Heinz's rule was the annihilation of the NUNS fleet en route to Winderemere? What about sending 85% of Al Shahal's population into a coma then?

And you're still treating mind control with Var as nothing. Violations are violations. Crimes are crimes.

[CriiGV]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why couldn't they have kissed? Why couldn't Macross Delta have just given us a kiss? Is that really too much to ask? It shouldn't be, as Frontier had at least one kiss!

I'll agree with you that not getting a kiss was pretty disappointing but overall I think the execution of their love confession was sweet and very romantic. I mean, at the beginning it was hilarious to watch Hayate spilling his spaghetti trying to confess to Freyja.

And his love confession to her while they were all hooked up to the Galactic network of mindcontrol....damn son. That's my boy. The whole Galaxy witnessed that love confession. Bravo. BRA-VO!

I'll admit I teared up a bit when they were in the cockpit and Freyja started tearing up over her crystalized hand. Hayate grasping her hand and saying that they would always be together from now on was overwhelmingly sweet and precious.

BUT if you wanted something more, have this:

Spoiler for Imagination is a wonderful thing:

I like to think Hayate and Freyja got up to more in that cockpit, I mean she's straddling him. Makes me go all buccha gori gori.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

I'll agree with you that not getting a kiss was pretty disappointing but overall I think the execution of their love confession was sweet and very romantic.

After reading Thess' translation, and sleeping on things... Yeah, I was far too critical on the romance side of things last night. Since I was starting to doubt a HayaFrey ending a few episodes ago, I honestly should be deeply relieved we were given a clear-cut HayaFrey end. I guess I should be less selfish, and just be glad that the 2nd best possible end for Hayate/Freyja was achieved.

And it's wonderful to see a genki girl character win a love triangle for a change!

I mean, at the beginning it was hilarious to watch Hayate spilling his spaghetti trying to confess to Freyja.

True, that was funny.

I'll admit I teared up a bit when they were in the cockpit and Freyja started tearing up over her crystalized hand. Hayate grasping her hand and saying that they would always be together from now on was overwhelmingly sweet and precious.

Agreed. Great moment.

And yeah, very nice screenshot and imagination you have there, CriiGV!

[magnuskn]

Hey, guys, Thess doesn't care about war crimes and mass murder, only that the precious Windbags are the purer than the purest driven snow. There's a reason he is on my ignore list.

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by CriiGV

BUT if you wanted something more, have this:

Despite the message that picture sends, the picture itself bothers me. Freya looks like she is too large in that shot, and she seems to be positioned in a way like she was painted on the cockpit window. It ruined an otherwise really great shot, and I hope it is something that is adjusted on the Blu-ray release.

[FlamingMangos]

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

Despite the message that picture sends, the picture itself bothers me. Freya looks like she is too large in that shot, and she seems to be positioned in a way like she was painted on the cockpit window. It ruined an otherwise really great shot, and I hope it is something that is adjusted on the Blu-ray release.

Hmm... I don't think I really understand what you mean. It looks fine to me.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

Despite the message that picture sends, the picture itself bothers me. Freya looks like she is too large in that shot, and she seems to be positioned in a way like she was painted on the cockpit window. It ruined an otherwise really great shot, and I hope it is something that is adjusted on the Blu-ray release.

She's sitting on his lap so she's up higher in the shot on purpose; plus, his ex-gear is blocking a part of his body so it's about right...

I'm more concerned with the pan at the end where their forms stay in place even as the plane turns.

-

EDIT: And you know, I could argue about romance in Delta; however, I never considered intimate romance (kissing, hugging, sex) something Macross handles on a daily basis (after all, 7 and Plus had no kisses for the main cast, Zero and DYRL had one kiss per girl, and SDF-1 only had one kiss for Minmei). Frontier implied (for a majority of fans, I guess) that Macross could up its intimate romance scenes (because Alto and Sheryl especially had more than one kiss scene throughout its run); however, yeah... no, they kissed because it fit the characters themselves (and overall theme, considering Ranka also kisses him in Mao's place). Delta, on the other hand, deals with romance blooming outside of intimacy: Two people who are kindred spirits and love each other simply because they are. You don't see that type of romance in modern anime anymore...

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Heinz isn't responsible for their berserker condition? What the hell? What do you call the first episode when Heinz sang in the sanctum and a violent frenzy broke out on Al Shahal?

Heightened emotions are what stirs var. Heinz's song could get them into frenzy when he first sang (first episode) because their emotions flared, but the intended effect is to put them under their control. The first episode was a test, they never actually used var before episode 1 (it was the first time Heinz sang and he didn't want to sing then, so the experiment failed, that's why Keith and Gramia told him to man up and fight for Windermere in the following episodes). Anyway, he's just an ignorant child following adults, his father's, the king, instructions. You've to be ridiculous to punish him for it. You punish the adults who used him, which is exactly what happened.

There were no singing in previous var outbreaks because what triggers them is just heightened emotions. Heinz' song is what controls them and forces those forces submit bloodlessly. Because Heinz didn't want anyone to die and this is what Roid used to manipulate him, a child's innocent wish made him a tool for war. What they did to Heinz is disgusting. You don't punish child soldiers, you give them help. Go and actually look up this.

Originally Posted by Convoy

Only use of Var under Heinz's rule was the annihilation of the NUNS fleet en route to Winderemere? What about sending 85% of Al Shahal's population into a coma then?

Yes and no. Var was legitimately used against hostile forces trying to attack their planet in middle of a war under Heinz. As you said, those NUNS forces got it coming.

And no, Al Shahal population falling into coma wasn't Var, it was Roid messing with the Protoculture system he first activated in Voldor whose effects he never informed Heinz (who also fell unconscious, remember?) and spent bedridden for days under the care of a doctor. That was on Roid's doing, and the only other who knew what happened was Berger (it was then when Roid discovered the network system hivemind usage which he hid from Heinz and the rest. Berger figured it out what it was).

However, after Heinz' coronation, he actually didn't use var anymore. What happened is that Roid's protoculture experiments which he regretted and turned against in the end. The var thing was on Roid, Gramia and Keith heads (because Keith did encourage him before he had a change of heart), they used a 9 years old child for their agenda. And only one, Keith, regretted it.

Originally Posted by Convoy

And you're still treating mind control with Var as nothing. Violations are violations. Crimes are crimes.

It's a war. Var was a weapon and a weapon that they never stated was illegal to use. Unlike Dimensional Eaters. As for that Hive Network thing (which was Roid's stuff, not Heinz'). It was the Protoculture who created a system for the Windermerians to mind control the Galaxy. Yup, Roid just used what they left for them. There are certainly considerations about what the hell did they want, turn them into Vajra (they are obsessed with Vajra, after all)? Keith finds that protoculture rubbish to be nonsense, so he obviously killed Roid.

The show addressed var mind control as something bad, morally wrong, but, here's the thing, it wasn't presented as illegal to use in a war. It was a war. Awful things happens and war itself is a bad thing. Var allowed Windermere to have a bloodless and clean victory of two planets before Roid's ambition got out control (and they turned against him) and NUNS came with their illegal dimensional weapons. What was unambigiously presented as illegal were the treatment of prisoners (which they found a legal loophole, so technically, it wasn't) and NUNS's actions. To you it may be a horrible violation, but the show clearly presented NUNS as the illegal force and Windermere as not, even if both got questionable actions and were wrong, but on the scale of evil, NUNS were the worst. So one side is portrayed as 100% bad and got blow up to smithers, while the other digs into their sob backstories of why they did this and make their deaths tragic or noble, and the others finally reach the enlightenent by understanding.

Don't argue with me. Argue with the story. And remember all Macross are fictionalization of real-life events in that Universe. Question instead what happened in the Galaxy that the fiction has been progressively portraying NUNS (as in Earth-controlled forces) as the source of all evil. Sure, they may not be the antagonist the protagonists fight sometimes, but somehow they were responsible for that fight in the first place (as if the protagonists have to clean their mess). I find it more interesting in a meta way to see the evolution of it. Sure, we can think it's Kawamori who has lost its mind, but I think that, if it's fiction based on real life, maybe the reason of this is that planets and colonies are beginning to see Earth not as a protector force but as an intrusive, imperialistic hegemony that must be fought against. If they were well loved, they wouldn't be portrayed as Satan in all the Macross Delta works, not just the anime. But this is a meta discussion. I'm just noticing this pattern. Remember we don't actually know what happened. Macross Delta is like Saving Private Ryan: a fictional take of some events.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Convoy

Heinz isn't responsible for their berserker condition? What the hell? What do you call the first episode when Heinz sang in the sanctum and a violent frenzy broke out on Al Shahal?

Only use of Var under Heinz's rule was the annihilation of the NUNS fleet en route to Winderemere? What about sending 85% of Al Shahal's population into a coma then?

And you're still treating mind control with Var as nothing. Violations are violations. Crimes are crimes.

Heinz was just a mere puppet used by his father and later by his teacher and advisor. Those who held the power of the nation misguided him. It's to blame the father and the people around him to not having him educated that all races can live under the same sky. The only one who could have opened his eyes was his brother but his brother had grief in his heart also being blind to see who the enemy was and who he should have saved. At the end. Heinz believed that his doing is for the best, since he has been taught that NUNS organization is the evil that rooted in the galaxy. It's the same as if you say all muslim are terrorists. at a point in your growing you will believe this and children at the age of Heinz are easy to manipulate.

The incident on Al Shahal was an accident. It was never meant to put them to coma. The experiment failed and they went into coma. Again. Heinz is just a puppet. The one let this experiment process was... Roid? What you can at least say is that those who has caused pain to the nations have died in the series. Gramia, Roid, the evil NUN Mayor.

Killing one more won't bring back the dead. Heinz has to live to build up his nation and the relationship to the others in the starwind sector. NUN has to rethink about being paranoid about protoculture technology. Especially at a point where it did not even cause harm. Mikumo is the reincarnation of the protoculture and should they now lock her aaway or kill because she is also just a puppet?

Since the series end. I recomment to read the manga (translated) to at least understand what caused the mistake. The show has too many open questions and some are answered by the manga. That's all what I can tell at the moment.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Killing one more won't bring back the dead. Heinz has to live to build up his nation and the relationship to the others in the starwind sector. NUN has to rethink about being paranoid about protoculture technology. Especially at a point where it did not even cause harm. Mikumo is the reincarnation of the protoculture and should they now lock her aaway or kill because she is also just a puppet?

Exactly. Heinz took the right step to change things. He took the first of his own decision, following no one but his own "wind." Because of this war, he lost his health and his family, also part of his innocence. And he's just nine. You can blame the adults around him, but Heinz was just another victim caught in circumstances beyond his control.

[Urei]

Uaa, finally got to watch the last episode. What an episode that was.

Rushed...comes to my mind but that would be an understatement, at least in my opinion. So many things unexplained, so many plot points left open.

For the love of god, I can't even understand why some of the things I saw on screen actually happened. Right now all I can think of is that Roids master plan was blown to bits thanks to Hayate grabbing his fold quartz and through the power of magical love awakened by two random main protagonists (excluding the importance of love of all the people in the galaxy).

One interesting thing was Keith and Roids 22 second fight/clash of ideas. That could have been a very interesting macross series on it's own. Shame that potential went to waste.

Anyways, this finale was probably one of the worst I saw in Macross series. Maybe I'm too bitter about Deltas wasted potential or maybe because I expected more out of this final and got even less then that.

[HirouKeimou]

It's amazing how this final episode sort of reminds me of Sousei no Aquarion's finale without anyone dying/disappearing eternally... Probably is the reason I'm not sour about this ending for Delta.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Urei

One interesting thing was Keith and Roids 22 second fight/clash of ideas. That could have been a very interesting macross series on it's own. Shame that potential went to waste.

Yeees, it was like two shows hastily put together, huh?

[Hoshi_Nox]

So I think I have rewatched this episode like 10 times already and I still get that sweet haunting feeling that I just can't shrug off.

It's been a very long time since I have commented on work done by Kawamori (since Aquarion Evol to be exact) and usually I jam in with my speculation theories but meh I couldn't be bothered this time around.

Maybe because I felt there was something lacking with the whole premise of the show - whilst I enjoyed it I feel there could have been much more done.

I must say I was quite happy that it is Freyja X Hayate and not because it would be considered breaking tradition but I was hoping for some change (initially I had thought Mikumo was part of the triangle - but was surprisingly corrected).

I think the ending was well suited to the whole atmosphere of this episode - it provides a forboding feeling because we really will never know if Freyja will survive her advanced aging but reassuring nonetheless that Hayate is wanting to stay with her till the very end. Whilst a kiss scene might have impacted a bit more I think the ending is suffice in a way that it indicates he loves her for her (she's been real with him from the start).

But yeah, I just can't shake off the haunting feeling it gives - I rejoiced, yes but now that I've watched it again I don't know whether to be happy or cry lol - maybe I'll just miss the show.

[Urei]

Originally Posted by Thess

Yeees, it was like two shows hastily put together, huh?

That's true. I got severe Isamu vs Gould vibes from that plot point. It'd be amazing if they threw in 2 interesting and unique female character leads in between. Ah, oh well Delta...oh well.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Urei

That's true. I got severe Isamu vs Gould vibes from that plot point. It'd be amazing if they threw in 2 interesting and unique female character leads in between. Ah, oh well Delta...oh well.

Mikumo could have easily be the main heroine in one story, I think. Or Kaname. It's too bad.

[Benigmatica]

Damn, that was a thrilling ride... While Hayate end up with Freyja even though she's gonna die soon, there are a few questions remain like peace talks between Windermere and New United Nations. Then again, the talks will be very shaky due to their violation of human rights, use of weapons, etc.