Madoka Magica - Movie 3 Spoilers and Speculations

[AuraTwilight]

Sayaka explicitly says that she is happy, and I notice that her crush's hand has been healed, something that Madoka couldn't grant her.

Just pointing out that Sayaka still has a Puella Magi soul gem ring on her finger, meaning Sayaka still made the contract in Homura's universe. The two are thus equivalent on this point.

[Monoriu]

I think the flower fields scene is very powerful and moving. It forms the basis for Homura's actions toward the end of the movie.

Homura has never been happy about Madoka's wish. It represents her personal failure to fulfill her promise to Madoka. That Madoka made the wish then and there in EP12 was largely to save her from turning into a witch. That's exactly the opposite of what Homura wanted - she wanted to protect Madoka, not the other way round. Even in the space hug scene in EP12, Homura still tried to argue with Madoka. They didn't really have time to finish the discussion in space. So the flower fields was Homura's chance to find out once and for all if there was any regret on Madoka's part.

The reply confirmed Homura's long-held suspicion that Madoka couldn't bear the consequences. Homura realised that she actually stood by and silently went along with Madoka's decision in EP12. Instead of, say, turning time back once more. Madokami is suffering because Homura failed to keep her promise.

I noticed that, just before entering the flower fields, they passed by the EP8 bench and fountain. The place where Homura broke down and asked Modoka why she was so willing to sacrifice herself for others. This is Shinbo's way of telling the audience that Homura was in the same mindset when she entered the flower fields. Madoka's words confirmed Homura's view, and set into motion Homura's plan to bring back Madoka.

When Madoka's god powers manifested themselves in the school hallway, Homura figured that maybe she didn't correctly interpret Madoka's real desire. The way she framed the question and their emotional state in the flower fields didn't help. So she asked Madoka a second time in the school hallway, this time presenting it as a choice between two options. The answer shocked her and she was on the verge of tears. But at that point there was no turning back.

For the first time ever, Madoka voiced discomfort when Homura hugged her. In EP10, 11, 12, and most of the movie, Madoka either happily embraced Homura, or didn't resist when Homura hugged her. The half moon and the single chair in the scene after the credits didn't help in the slightest. The trajedy in the TV series was that they had so little time together after Madoka learned the whole picture. The trajedy in the movie is that after everything they've been through, they are perhaps further apart than at any time beforehand.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

When Madoka's god powers manifested themselves in the school hallway, Homura figured that maybe she didn't correctly interpret Madoka's real desire.

What you choose to do and what you truly want aren't necessarily the same thing. Modaka's true desire is to be a normal girl and be together with her loved ones, just like she told Homura in the flower fields scene. I don't think there's any doubts about this and the scene in the school hallway when Madoka manifests her god powers doesn't contradict this. Madoka only confirms something that Homura already knew: Madoka would always choose to fulfill her duty (or at least what she perceives is her duty) over her true desires.

In fact, I don't know why Homura looks so surprised about Madoka's answer. Even during the flower fields scene Homura admits that she knows Madoka's the kind of person to sacrifece her own happiness for the greater good. That's why I wonder if her reaction in the school hallway is not the staff misinterpreting the script. After all, Urobuchi has said he specifically wrote the script bare bones this time, with almost only dialog and little to know description of each scene. This means a lot of stuff was subject to interpretation for the staff.

[Triple_R]

Homura took Madoka's flower fields answer to mean that she felt a greater sense of obligation to her loved ones than to the world in general, or to "the law". She never took that to mean that Madoka wasn't self-sacrificing, but that she'd prioritize her friends and family members above the world in general. So if there was a way to be with all her friends and family members, and not be Madokami, she'd favor that. Or so Homura thought. By this interpretation, Homura probably though Madoka's Episode 12 wish was more for the sake of the Puella Magi that Madoka knew personally (Sayaka, Homura, Mami, Kyouko) than for the sake of Puella Magi in general. So if Homura makes Madoka a normal girl again, and ensures that Sayaka and Mami are alive and well, Madoka should be happy, right?

Madoka's "Law" answer later on throws that into doubt, and makes it seem possible that if Madoka could choose between being Madokami, or taking the existence Homura has now given her, she'd choose Madokami. That's why it startled Homura.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Homura took Madoka's flower fields answer to mean that she felt a greater sense of obligation to her loved ones than to the world in general, or to "the law".

I don't see how Homura (or anyone) could understand that from Madoka's words. Madoka says that she wouldn't be happy/able to bear leaving her loved ones behind. This has nothing to do with a sense of obligation or duty. Madoka's just talking about her feelings, and Homura asking if those are her true feelings suggests that she understands that.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

She never took that to mean that Madoka wasn't self-sacrificing.

But the thing is that in episode 12 Madoka down plays her self-sacrifice. In fact, Madoka basically says that isn't a sacrifices at all. That's why in flower fields scene Homura's so surprised when Madoka admits that it would be a huge sacrifice to leave her loved ones behind. It's a big revelation for her.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I don't see how Homura (or anyone) could understand that from Madoka's words.

It's quite easy and reasonable to understand Madoka's words that way. Doesn't it make sense to think that Madoka wouldn't be happy to leave her loved ones behind because she wouldn't want to harm them that way? In fact, given the context of Homura's flower fields discussion with Madoka, it makes perfect sense to interpret Madoka's words this way. Homura was talking about how sad losing Madoka made her, so that is what Madoka's words ought to be addressing - The harm that her leaving loved ones behind could cause. Madoka's answer was clearly intended to reassure Homura that she wouldn't do that.

So I think you're being overly restrictive in how you're interpreting this Homura/Madoka discussion.

Besides, this interpretation obviously fits the on-screen visuals better than the one you're promoting, because the one you're promoting fails to account for Homura being surprised over Madoka's "Law" answer.

[Kazu-kun]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The last scene is a bit puzzling, but this movie is so full of half-assed ideas that that alone doesn't convince me.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The last scene is a bit puzzling, but this movie is so full of half-assed ideas that that alone doesn't convince me.

The last scene isn't puzzling as long as you go with my interpretation, which is a perfectly viable interpretation.

I mean, really, don't you get my contextual argument here? In the flower fields scene, Homura is quite clearly talking about how losing Madoka harmed her. So that's what Madoka's words ought to be addressing. What Madoka's loved ones means to her, and how she wouldn't be willing to harm them by leaving them.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I mean, really, don't you get my contextual argument here? In the flower fields scene, Homura is quite clearly talking about how losing Madoka harmed her. So that's what Madoka's words ought to be addressing. What Madoka's loved ones means to her, and how she wouldn't be willing to harm them by leaving them.

What about the context of the last scene? Homura asks whether Madoka would choose desire over duty. The duality Homura is talking about (duty vs desire) makes sense only in the context of Homura believing that being with her loved ones is Madoka's true desire, something she truly wants for her own sake as opposed to duty/a sense of obligation.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more nonsensical Homura's reaction at the end seems to me. And your interpretation, while superficially sound, ultimately contradicts the whole "duty vs desire" theme that's going on.

[Monoriu]

First, I think it is deliberate that the interaction between Madoka and Humura leaves some room for interpretation. Afterall, Shaft probably has no idea how the sequel will play out, so it makes sense to be vague so that whatever they come up with for the sequel, it won't contradict with the movie.

Secondly, I've rewatched the flower fields scene a couple of times. Too bad I don't have the official translation with me, so I could be wrong. But my distinct impression is that the flower fields question and the hallway question are different. In the school hallway, the question from Homura is very clear. Do you prefer A or B? In the flower fields, Homura didn't give two options for Madoka. She asked if Madoka could live with the consequences of A. Madoka, without knowing the full context or the existance of option B, answered that she would never choose A because it would hurt everybody too much. It is like a case of one dialogue, two conversations. Madoka was responding to a simple question about feelings. Homura was thinking if she made the right choice in EP12.

I just love this movie, despite its flaws. I rewatched the camerarip a few times and some details caught my attention -

- When Madoka jumped into Homura's boat and pushed her to the ground, the camera switched to a different angle to show the aft of the ship. A familiar - Homura's familiar - started playing fireworks to show just how happy Homura was.

- When Homura shot herself in the head. It was a pistol, and she first used her left hand to point the gun at herself. Then she had to use her right hand to steady her left before she could pull the trigger. The veteran soldier can easily fire machine guns, throw grenades, shoot mortars and launch missiles, but she needed to steady her hand before she could fire the pistol. It was just so painful.

- When Homura finally froze time and pointed a gun at Mami's face, she hesitated, changed her mind and pointed the gun at Mami's leg instead. Again, she had to use her other hand to help push the gun down. On a rational level, shooting Mami in her face probably would be more effective. But Homura's hidden kindness wouldn't allow her to inflict so much pain (pain that she herself just experienced seconds ago) on her friend - even though she knew perfectly well that shooting Mami's face wouldn't kill her. She was conflicted about where to shoot, but her kindness prevailed in the end. Also compare this scene and the one just before. Homura showed much hesitation before shooting Mami, but none before shooting herself. She was willing to blow up her own head to accomplish her mission, but not her friend's.

- Mami too. She saw Homura seemingly trying to commit suicide. Her instinctive reaction - there was no time to think - was to throw everything away to try to stop Homura. They just fought seconds ago, but neither of them meant to kill.

- due to shooting herself in the head, Homura had blood all over her face when she shot Mami, talked with Sayaka, and walked around in the city alone. She didn't care about how she looked. Until she saw Madoka, when the first thing she did was to clean up.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

What about the context of the last scene? Homura asks whether Madoka would choose desire over duty.

The specific word Homura used, at least in the subs I saw, was "Law". Given that Madoka used to be "The Law of Cycles", I'm inclined to think this specific word choice on Homura's part is important.

"Law" is not exactly the same as a personal sense of duty. Homura knows that Madoka will make personal sacrifices for those that she cares about. This is for personal reasons on Madoka's part, it reflects her desires for her loved ones. Homura is asking Madoka if the Law matters more to her than her personal desires (including her desires for her loved ones).

Madoka's "Law" answer threw Homura off because the Flower Fields discussion made Homura think that Madoka would put her desires ahead of any natural laws or principles.

The duality Homura is talking about (duty vs desire) makes sense only in the context of Homura believing that being with her loved ones is Madoka's true desire, something she truly wants for her own sake as opposed to duty/a sense of obligation.

No, it makes sense in the context that I'm putting it in as well. Again, there's a difference between "The Law" and one's personal sense of duty.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more nonsensical Homura's reaction at the end seems to me.

Homura's reaction at the end makes perfectly good sense.

Originally Posted by Monoriu

- When Homura finally froze time and pointed a gun at Mami's face, she hesitated, changed her mind and pointed the gun at Mami's leg instead. Again, she had to use her other hand to help push the gun down. On a rational level, shooting Mami in her face probably would be more effective. But Homura's hidden kindness wouldn't allow her to inflict so much pain (pain that she herself just experienced seconds ago) on her friend - even though she knew perfectly well that shooting Mami's face wouldn't kill her. She was conflicted about where to shoot, but her kindness prevailed in the end. Also compare this scene and the one just before. Homura showed much hesitation before shooting Mami, but none before shooting herself. She was willing to blow up her own head to accomplish her mission, but not her friend's.

While most of your observations are excellent pick-ups, and good points, I think you're off on this one.

Mami said "Since you didn't shoot in a vital spot, I believe you need me alive."

If Homura had shot Mami through the head, it would have killed her. Why wouldn't it? We know that Puella Magi can shut out pain, but their bodies can be damaged just as easily as a normal human's. Sayaka has some degree of regeneration, but that's unique to her due to her wish. Mami doesn't have that. And even if she did have Sayaka's regeneration, it's doubtful she could take a bullet straight through the head (Sayaka herself probably couldn't).

I think that Homura's instinctive response to any opponent is "shoot to eliminate". This makes sense since most of Homura's battles are against witches and familiars. So Homura has to catch herself when fighting Mami - She has to have it register "This time I'm fighting another Puella Magi. I don't want to kill her. So I should shoot her in a non-vital area".

Yes, it's an act of compassion/mercy on Homura's part. But it's about not killing Mami, not merely sparing her some pain.

[Vegard Aune]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If Homura had shot Mami through the head, it would have killed her. Why wouldn't it? We know that Puella Magi can shut out pain, but their bodies can be damaged just as easily as a normal human's. Sayaka has some degree of regeneration, but that's unique to her due to her wish. Mami doesn't have that. And even if she did have Sayaka's regeneration, it's doubtful she could take a bullet straight through the head (Sayaka herself probably couldn't).

Ah, but didn't Kyubey also make some argument about how, due to their souls being separated from their body, they could regenerate any damage to themselves as long as the Soul Gem was still intact? I seem to recall him mentioning both "getting torn to pieces" and "bleeding out every last drop of blood in your body" as being things that they could heal with magic because of this in that scene. So I'd say no, it probably wouldn't have killed her. Unless she were to actually shoot Mami's Soul Gem itself, she would have been able to regenerate...

...Actually, that also reminds me, Kyubey's claim that Sayaka could regenerate damage more quickly than others is one of the rare points where the show seemed to contradict itself... Dammit movie, now you've got me realizing that the show had plot-holes! Are you not content with just ruining my view of the arguable main protagonist of this franchise by turning her into a devil for ill-defined reasons?! Must you really destroy everything I love about this franchise?![/overdramatic]

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vegard Aune

Ah, but didn't Kyubey also make some argument about how, due to their souls being separated from their body, they could regenerate any damage to themselves as long as the Soul Gem was still intact? I seem to recall him mentioning both "getting torn to pieces" and "bleeding out every last drop of blood in your body" as being things that they could heal with magic because of this in that scene.

Character claims of this level I expect to see reinforced with an actual example at least once before I take it as literal, non-exaggerated, and completely trustworthy.

And we've never seen it. We've never seen a Puella Magi get her head blown off, and actually regenerate from that. We have seen Sayaka regenerate from some cuts and injuries, but just her, and they certainly weren't on the level of surviving a bullet straight through the head.

So I stick to my argument. A bullet through the head probably would have killed Mami. All we have to argue the contrary is some unsupported grandiose claim by Kyubey, a character known to be deceitful at times. And supporting my take is how the Puella Magi themselves approach such things as getting shot through the head. I mean, why would Homura even bother trying to shoot herself through the head if she'd just regenerate from it? Why would Mami react to it as one would to a friend trying to commit suicide?

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

While most of your observations are excellent pick-ups, and good points, I think you're off on this one.

Mami said "Since you didn't shoot in a vital spot, I believe you need me alive."

If Homura had shot Mami through the head, it would have killed her. Why wouldn't it? We know that Puella Magi can shut out pain, but their bodies can be damaged just as easily as a normal human's. Sayaka has some degree of regeneration, but that's unique to her due to her wish. Mami doesn't have that. And even if she did have Sayaka's regeneration, it's doubtful she could take a bullet straight through the head (Sayaka herself probably couldn't).

I think that Homura's instinctive response to any opponent is "shoot to eliminate". This makes sense since most of Homura's battles are against witches and familiars. So Homura has to catch herself when fighting Mami - She has to have it register "This time I'm fighting another Puella Magi. I don't want to kill her. So I should shoot her in a non-vital area".

Yes, it's an act of compassion/mercy on Homura's part. But it's about not killing Mami, not merely sparing her some pain.

First, Mami's line in the camerarip subtitles is different from the official Chinese subtitles that I saw in the threatres twice. In the theatre, Mami's line was along the lines of "since you didn't shoot a vital spot, it showed that you still cared about me."

It is clear that Puella Magi can survive a bullet to the head. Homura shot herself in the movie and easily survived. Mami's soul gem was on her hat, at the side. Charlotte killed Mami in EP3 because it chewed up her entire head. In the movie, Homura didn't aim for the soul gem. Homura at most considered shooting Mami in the face from the front, not at the soul gem.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

It is clear that Puella Magi can survive a bullet to the head.

No, that is not clear at all. Your arguments on this are by no means decisive. It's still perfectly reasonable to hold that a Puella Magi can not survive a bullet through the head. We have never seen a Puella Magi survive a bullet straight through the head.

Homura shot herself in the movie and easily survived.

That shot had its trajectory changed by Mami's actions. It didn't look to me like it went straight through Homura's head. Sure, you can have a bullet wound to the side of head, and survive it. That's even true for people in real life, of course. Homura ending up taking a grazing shot rather than a lethal blow.

[Monoriu]

[QUOTE=Triple_R;4930901]

And we've never seen it. We've never seen a Puella Magi get her head blown off, and actually regenerate from that. QUOTE]


Yes we did. Homura shot herself in the head in the movie. She survived and gradually regenerated. In fact she only took a few seconds to rest before standing up and pointing the same gun at Mami.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Yes we did. Homura shot herself in the head in the movie.

Why are you repeating this flawed argument? I just rebutted it above.

[Monoriu]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, that is not clear at all. Your arguments on this are by no means decisive. It's still perfectly reasonable to hold that a Puella Magi can not survive a bullet through the head. We have never seen a Puella Magi survive a bullet straight through the head.

That shot had its trajectory changed by Mami's actions. It didn't look to me like it went straight through Homura's head. Sure, you can have a bullet wound to the side of head, and survive it. That's even true for people in real life, of course. Homura ending up taking a grazing shot rather than a lethal blow.

I will watch the scene again then before getting back to you. But I think QB made it very clear back in EP6 that a Puella Magi can survive any damage to the body, up to and including losing all blood, as long as the soul gem is not damaged.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Why are you repeating this flawed argument? I just rebutted it above.

Because I do not accept your counter-argument

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Monoriu

Because I do not accept your counter-argument

There's nothing wrong with my counter-argument. And I already addressed what Kyubey said in the TV series.

We have no conclusive evidence that a Puella Magi can survive a shot straight through the head.

And in any event, what is the point of Homura trying to shoot herself through the head if she thinks she'll just regenerate from it?

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The specific word Homura used, at least in the subs I saw, was "Law". Given that Madoka used to be "The Law of Cycles", I'm inclined to think this specific word choice on Homura's part is important.

It's not the same word as in Law of Cycles, though even if it was it doesn't invalidate my point.

Homura is asking Madoka if the Law matters more to her than her personal desires

Yes, but equating "personal desire" with "personal sense of duty" is reaching. The theme at work here is common to pretty much everything that Urobuchi writes (according to himself): "personal happiness vs saving the world". In the tv series Madoka chooses to save the world (the magical girl world at the very least) at the cost of her personal happiness. In the movie, Homura chooses personal happiness (Madoka's happiness) over saving the world. Heck, Homura's last words to Madoka in the movie are "I still want to make a world where you're happy."

Anyway, I think I've proven my point, and I'm not interesting in going circular so if you're dead set on your theory, let's just agree to disagree and move on.