2007-08-03, 10:50 | Link #1021 |
The Last Frontier
Join Date: Apr 2004
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Exactly. I don't see how you can tell people not to assume things and that doing so would lead to fallacious argument and then assume that suddenly, when someone wants to reenact the massacre of Shinjuku, somehow, secretly, it's assumed she gave the orders to not kill civilians -_- While we do not specifically hear say 'Hey, soldiers, go kill civilians', we do hear her say 'this is going to reenact Shinjuku, so that we can draw Zero out'. REENACT. Which means with the killing of civilians and rebels alike, cause you know...thats what happened in Shinjuku -_-
Plus I disagree that Suzaku sincerely thinks what he is doing will help people. As i mentioned, he's in denial and wants to die and wants redemption. Unfortunately, he can't go help the japanese because he killed his father and basically lost them the war, so the only way he can keep going forward and not invalidate his previous choices is to join the brits. As for the others causing far less suffering, keep in mind they've also helped far less people or given far less hope to others -_- edit: As for selfishness "being largely a matter of doing things for personal reasons even when one shouldn't", I'd say that's iffy. After all, it can be admitted that Lulu is trying to change the world for Nanali, but then the latter part of the phrase doesn't quite ring true. Why shouldn't Lulu change the world? Is the current state of the world that desireable? Should he just accept the statue quo? Yes, it's true he'll bring lots of suffering if he does try to change the world. But then again, who's to say that those people wouldn't suffer anyway? Isn't there already suffering in the CG world? Isn't it likely to continue? At least if Lulu tries to change the world and succeed, it may end up to be a world with less suffering. So those who want to keep the status quo; like say certain britainnian royalty and certain knights, aren't they selfish as well? Because they want people to keep suffering? Because after all, if the world changes, it might be them that's suffering next and most wouldn't want that.
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2007-08-03, 11:14 | Link #1025 |
WE ARE.... PENN STATE....
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Oh Jesus Christ.
I hate that BS. Especially when the "transgression" is totally valid. Did you actually stop and think about that reference? Just because Zero is giving the people "hope" and "helping" them doesn't necessarily mean the overarching situation is better. Hitler gave his people hope, while he nearly destroyed the world for the worse. Lulu is supposedly giving the people hope while also killing them. I go back to the SAZ massacre. Lulu used the situation to his advantage, his SELFISH advantage. He had opportunity to prevent the massacre of over 200,000 people, or at least limit it, and made almost no attempt to do so. He tried at first, and then just let her go after that. Stopped me once? All right... I'll just let her flit around and come back later after everyone's dead... (I just watched this episode last night and I already forget the exact chain of events; I know he did attempt to stop her at first but was stopped by the guards, and then I don't think he tried again until later when he shoots her. He was wandering around the stands and such. Doesn't seem like he was in too much of a rush right now. Okay, so he's contemplating and such killing another family member, this one a sibling he likes. But could ya move with a little sense of urgency there, Lulu?) So yes, the people are uplifted by they perceive Zero giving them, but so much of their pain and suffering is actually caused by him either directly or indirectly. They don't realize it. That's why I am VERY curious to see how Kallen deals with the revelation that Zero inadvertently caused the SAZ massacre. I don't remember (again, my memory sucks) if Suzaku actually said explicitly that Lulu used his Geass on Euhpie when he confronted Lulu at the end of 25. And I'm not saying that Lulu is Hitler. I'm saying that Hitler ALSO did what you claim Lulu is doing, giving people hope. Hitler and Lulu are much different, I realize that. But saying that Lulu makes up for the suffering he's caused by giving people hope... nuh-uh. Not a chance.
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2007-08-03, 11:24 | Link #1026 | ||||
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If there was a way to sum up Cornelia it would be an honorable Purist. She considers the lives of anyone not Britannian disposable in order to achieve her own goals. However, she will not needlessly risk her Britannian soldier comrades. It's a very good way to create a character that came from nobility. Honestly, even after the last episode I believe a majority of people still support Lelouch's goal. We've been over the other incidents where Lelouch was responsible for like Narita, and the Euphemia massacre. What you think about those incidents is up to you. |
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2007-08-03, 11:29 | Link #1027 | |
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Lelouch was NOT giving an order to Euphie, he was making a casual comment that turned into an order because his Geass power grew to wear he couldn't turn it off . |
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2007-08-03, 11:31 | Link #1028 | ||
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2. Even when shouldn't ? Suzaku thinks he shouldn't. You think he shouldn't. Who else ? (yes I know there are still some ppl like you, I just happen to see more for-Lulu than against-Lulu opinions in all of the forums I visit, with a proportion of 9:1 ). 3. Despite having a lot of fans, he himself is an anti-Lulu more than most of other characters, except Suzaku and Nina . Although he believes what he did is needed, at times he ussually blames himself. He didn't justify or try to explain (eg., "the Euphie case is an accident" to Suzaku) but simply take the responsibility and goes to hell. I dont say he is a kind person, and I dont say he is not selfish at all, but considering him that much selfish, you might be driven by your hate Quote:
Tell me what nations did gain back its independence without a leader who could give hope |
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2007-08-03, 11:33 | Link #1029 | |
WE ARE.... PENN STATE....
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I said he used the situation to his selfish advantage once it had begun, accident or not.
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2007-08-03, 11:33 | Link #1030 | |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law And I'm not saying Lulu makes up for the suffering by giving people increased hope, but at least he is giving people increased hope. Sure, it'd be nice if the world could just suddenly become better without any suffering, or if everything was just dandy, but from what I've observed, there's usually a bit of suffering with everything that comes along. I guess the adage, no pain no gain, is true. And Lulu DID try to stop the massacre. Why do you think he had the black knights called in? And besides, he was in frigging shock right after Euphie went berserk. You could see it when the old japanese lady clinged onto him, he recoiled and lamented. I mean, did you expect him to go 'shit, Euphies now gone insane because of me. And is killing lots of people, better stop her now' calmly? And other than the SAZ blunder, when has Lulu specifically caused pain for the japanese civilians? And even then, he got screwed by his plot device eyes. edit: Actually, I want to qns the definition of selfish that has been bantered about the forum right now. I mean the definition for selfish is 1. devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others. 2. characterized by or manifesting concern or care only for oneself: selfish motives. And the reason I qns that is because if Lulu is so 'selfish' as people put it, why the frigg does he care so much for Nanali and even place her above himself? He's willing to drop almost anything just to go to her side. And JagdPanther, what would you have done if you were in Lulus shoes? Admitted to everything?
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2007-08-03, 11:37 | Link #1031 | ||
WE ARE.... PENN STATE....
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And so what's your point? Quote:
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2007-08-03, 11:41 | Link #1032 |
The Last Frontier
Join Date: Apr 2004
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So how is it BS or how is it a transgression?
And of course he wasn't urgent. He just accidentally geassed one of his fave relatives and first love into becoming a homicidal maniac. He was stupefied, shellshocked, stunned into disbelief. He's not an emotionless machine all the time -_-
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2007-08-03, 11:43 | Link #1033 | |
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2007-08-03, 11:50 | Link #1034 | |
WE ARE.... PENN STATE....
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The BS is referencing too pulling out that law. The transgression was my apparent proving of a law that isn't actually a law in any sense.
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2007-08-03, 12:47 | Link #1037 |
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What exactly did you expect Lelouch to do during that massacre? He'd be shot on sight if he went any where near the prince near the start, she was surrounded by guards and he is there enemy. Falling into shock, he ordered the OoTBK to quickly save who ever they could, of course they couldn't save everyone but they did save some.
Lelouch using Euphie's massacre is so that her life doesn't go to waste. He can't leave it as it is, and he can't tell everyone that he did it. He spun it to unite the people and give them some hope after several thousand were just brutishly massacred. The only sound choice who could have made. |
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