Controversial Fansub Documentary

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

Tofu, I know you don't like the guy, but writing a fake CV for "Otaking" is really beyond the pale.

No actual professional translator would put "otaking" as their contact email, or list a fast food job or an "interest in video games" as a reason to hire them.

Hey, a lot of people like fast food restaurants. They show "managerial skills" and "teamwork," supposedly.

And an interest in video games is essential when you primarily translate video games. I'm able to say to employers that I've often played the titles before they even ask me to translate them...

Which is essential with Mario games, where almost every single character has a different name in English to Japanese. And you should see Mega Man Star Force... bloody hell (shudder) Prior knowledge is a must with stuff like this. You wouldn't believe how many translation application tests I've marked where people have written "Pikumin" because they haven't spent three seconds on wiki finding out that there's this game called "Pikmin."

Translating blind is hard work!

Originally Posted by Draders

http://uk.mms.com/mms/en-GB

Seeing as they have a website and commericals, they can't be that rare...

Yes, but we don't have the peanut butter variety. We have chocolate, and we have Peanut. And those blue crispy ones...

[Cyprene]

So that was a real CV? Seriously? Wow.

Well, OK, I guess that's irrelevant. If I were you I'd give it a revision fast, but it's none of my business.

Anyway, speaking as probably the most veteran translator on IRC currently, trying to say ANYTHING about fansubbing as a whole is meaningless. You can cherry pick examples of anything you want. "Fansubbers" is a term that encompasses tens of thousands of people over a thirty year time span from all over the planet. There are times when things are over-noted, and there are times when things which really needed a note to make any sense of them didn't get marked. I could easily pick out 10 examples to counter every point you made, and you could pick out 10 more to prove it again.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by Cyprene

So that was a real CV? Seriously? Wow.

Well, OK, I guess that's irrelevant. If I were you I'd give it a revision fast, but it's none of my business.

Anyway, speaking as probably the most veteran translator on IRC currently, trying to say ANYTHING about fansubbing as a whole is meaningless. You can cherry pick examples of anything you want. "Fansubbers" is a term that encompasses tens of thousands of people over a thirty year time span from all over the planet. There are times when things are over-noted, and there are times when things which really needed a note to make any sense of them didn't get marked. I could easily pick out 10 examples to counter every point you made, and you could pick out 10 more to prove it again.

We'll all have to agree to disagree and just agree on the universal fact that MAcross is the single greatest anime ever made. ^_^
Now, if you want *real* controversy and whining, take a look at this: http://mightyotaking.deviantart.com/...ading-29540707

[Cyprene]

That's some real whining there, yeah.
Kind of off-topic though.

[getfresh]

Personally, I think anyone who bitches about the process of a free medium and who tries to liken it to the "professional" standard, which by the way has been failing for years, is just a whiner. Before complaining about why things are the way they are, why not just follow what the MAJORITY of the people who ARE fans and WATCH the releases say. Most of them say they like it this way, and just because most of the "leet" fans blahblah, think the majority are morons doesn't mean they are wrong. If we are subbing for anyone it is the majority who downloads it. We don't go with things that failed us in getting downloads or fan base for our groups. Everyone wants people to watch their releases, and the true testament to a group doing what the general fans base wants is if without speed subbing they get as many if not more downloads than anyone. Thats the proof in what the MARKET wants. If the "professionals" cannot see this, and they are "professionals" who are based on making money, even if you do not wish to believe that, then the professionals FAIL. So all the arguments in the world won't change the fact that what the "professionals" are doing is NOT what the general public wants since most of their companies are going belly up. Before you make a "Educational" film next time, do some real research instead of half assed opinions. You will probably pan out with better results than this drivel.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by getfresh

Before complaining about why things are the way they are, why not just follow what the MAJORITY of the people who ARE fans and WATCH the releases say. Most of them say they like it this way, and just because most of the "leet" fans blahblah, think the majority are morons doesn't mean they are wrong. If we are subbing for anyone it is the majority who downloads it. .

The majority can be told what to like. Start subbing without honorifics and actually translating and getting some really nice localisation in there and they'll lap it up. Again, just look at how well Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy sell. Do you see anyone saying "Snake-kun, Meryl-san has been kidnapped by the Taisa-dono!"? No, you don't. You get perfect localisation and people buy it in ridiculous quantities. Same with Final Fantasy. There's no "Rikku-chan" in FFX. And instead of calling Yuna "Yuna-chan" she calls her "Yunie." which works. And people bought it in ridiculous quantities.

You cannot in your right mind tell me these arguments are bullshit. And when Metal Gear 4 outsells everything in history, it won't have a single honorific in it, I guarantee.

[D404]

I think you purposely left out the second part of his post.

[Nicholi]

Softsubs solves all problems of the universe.

I put forth that all hardsubbers should die and burn in their AVI hell (please don't moderate me ;-;, this post is relevant).

[Daiz]

Originally Posted by Tofusensei

I dunno, I write my scripts for a reasonably intelligent American audience :X

YMMV

-Tofu

You seem to forget that thanks to the internet, English fansubs have an international audience. Quite a large number of the people watching English fansubs in fact do not speak English as their first language. This includes me, too. For me, if a translator changes a Japanese cultural note to American cultural note, it doesn't really get any better... Sure, I might understand the American cultural note much more easier, but I've noticed at some fansubs that sometimes I would have understood the thing better if it just had been left in Japanese, but that's just me.

Anyway, the point is that you shouldn't forget the rest of the world who also watches English fansubs.

Originally Posted by Nicholi

Softsubs solves all problems of the universe.

I put forth that all hardsubbers should die and burn in their AVI hell (please don't moderate me ;-;, this post is relevant).

I completely agree with this post.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by D404

I think you purposely left out the second part of his post.

Yes, but the same applies to that part too. FF, MGS, Mega Man... all the top selling games are fully translated and localised, and they're certainly not going "belly-up."
And, as I say, I expect a fantastic translation for Metal Gear 4. Sadly Jeremy Blaustein's not doing this one, but whoever does will have their work cut out for them.

Localisation is not only necessary, it's a shit stack of fun and poses a bunch of exciting challenges that a lot of fansubbers are missing out on.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

The majority can be told what to like. Start subbing without honorifics and actually translating and getting some really nice localisation in there and they'll lap it up. Again, just look at how well Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy sell. Do you see anyone saying "Snake-kun, Meryl-san has been kidnapped by the Taisa-dono!"? No, you don't. You get perfect localisation and people buy it in ridiculous quantities. Same with Final Fantasy. There's no "Rikku-chan" in FFX. And instead of calling Yuna "Yuna-chan" she calls her "Yunie." which works. And people bought it in ridiculous quantities.

You cannot in your right mind tell me these arguments are bullshit. And when Metal Gear 4 outsells everything in history, it won't have a single honorific in it, I guarantee.

You are talking about an Over-dub or a rewriten script anyways. When you remove the original content and don't have it for the viewer, they have no idea it was there to start with. But the fact, the FACT remains that the professional subtitle industry is FAILING. And there are just as many people ripping and providing video games as there are fansubs, so your point = NULL and VOID.

[Cyprene]

The majority can be told what to like. Start subbing without honorifics and actually translating and getting some really nice localisation in there and they'll lap it up. Again, just look at how well Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy sell. Do you see anyone saying "Snake-kun, Meryl-san has been kidnapped by the Taisa-dono!"? No, you don't. You get perfect localisation and people buy it in ridiculous quantities. Same with Final Fantasy. There's no "Rikku-chan" in FFX. And instead of calling Yuna "Yuna-chan" she calls her "Yunie." which works. And people bought it in ridiculous quantities.

Again, speaking from a position of experience, the choice by the translator to use honorifics and/or localization has only a minimal affect on downloads. If anything, the trend among downloaders is to veer toward the use of honorifics as giving a more "authentic" experience, I had several complaints about my choice not to use them in Bakumatsu Kikansetsu Irohanihoheto and Inuyasha.

The audience for fansubs is not the mainstream anime audience and it never will be; it hates localization with a passion and on the whole prefers honorifics. Saying that Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy sell well without them is meaningless; the target consumer is COMPLETELY different. Again, this is from six years and well over seven hundred episodes worth of experience.

[icealchemist]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Yes, but the same applies to that part too. FF, MGS, Mega Man... all the top selling games are fully translated and localised, and they're certainly not going "belly-up."

But they lost the whole pun about "Rock & Roll".

[D404]

Also, all those games you mentioned have marketing. Not like anime dvds get that.

[Draders]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Yes, but the same applies to that part too. FF, MGS, Mega Man... all the top selling games are fully translated and localised, and they're certainly not going "belly-up."
And, as I say, I expect a fantastic translation for Metal Gear 4. Sadly Jeremy Blaustein's not doing this one, but whoever does will have their work cut out for them.

Localisation is not only necessary, it's a shit stack of fun and poses a bunch of exciting challenges that a lot of fansubbers are missing out on.

And I bet they would sell just as well if they left honourifics in.

[getfresh]

Originally Posted by MightyOtaking

Yes, but the same applies to that part too. FF, MGS, Mega Man... all the top selling games are fully translated and localised, and they're certainly not going "belly-up."
And, as I say, I expect a fantastic translation for Metal Gear 4. Sadly Jeremy Blaustein's not doing this one, but whoever does will have their work cut out for them.

Localisation is not only necessary, it's a shit stack of fun and poses a bunch of exciting challenges that a lot of fansubbers are missing out on.

Also, let us bring to light that these games are a CLOSED market. there is no other version around for the fans to decide which once they want. With fansubs there are. So do the math, it will add up to you are not as smart as you think you are and it may be time for you to just bow out.

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by icealchemist

But they lost the whole pun about "Rock & Roll".

They did and for that they were short-sighted fools. ESPECIALLY as Rock is an English word anyway....
Trouble is, they thought Mega Man sounded a cooler title for the game, so when Roll was introduced later they were utterly screwed.

Tron Bonne as well. She'd clearly a pun on "Trombone" in Japanese but the romanisation choice doesn't get that across.

It's all about putting in some hardcore research before starting the translation. I saw a horrible sub of Macross Frontier recently where they've clearly never seen any episode of any Macross ever. the Valkyries (VFs) were misheard as "Briefs," and "Deculture" came out as "large boys and girls " or some such drivel...

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by Draders

And I bet they would sell just as well if they left honourifics in.

Of course they wouldn't! People who don't even watch anime or have any interest in Japan love Metal Gear. If Snake went around calling his commander "dono" or whatever, people would be so confused they'd think the DVD was broken and take it back to the shop!

[MightyOtaking]

Originally Posted by getfresh

Also, let us bring to light that these games are a CLOSED market. there is no other version around for the fans to decide which once they want. With fansubs there are. So do the math, it will add up to you are not as smart as you think you are and it may be time for you to just bow out.

So close the market on fansubs. Everyone boycot half-assed honorific-loving Japanese language-learning translation lessons and localise, and everyone will have to watch proper translation or else learn Japanese.
Then I'll build a giant statue of myself posing victoriously at the sky.

[Nicholi]

In short...people should sub however the fuck they want. In my mind until you form the Great United Fansub Council and completely standardize your special method of translating, you should just gtfo. Write a public rough draft for the practices you think should be followed in translation/fansubbing, see how much input you can even get from various e-pen0rz on the net, make a final draft, then attempt to get people to actually use and follow the standard. After that you can start ridiculing people who do not bow down to the might of the Great United Fansub Council.

If you didn't notice more and more people are subbing and don't give a damn about what "Fansub Generation __" thinks is important. As it should be, give them a reason to worship you and they might do it though.