Macross Delta - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[Annorax]

Ep8: hayate and Bogue side by side flying Gerwalk style. Hayate was at Bogue's RIGHT side so Bogue could fire his arm cannons at Hayate.
Ep10: hayate and Keith side by side flying Gerwalk style. Hayate was at Keith's LEFT side so Keith couldnt fire his arm cannons at Hayate.

Say what you will about Hayte's skill, buffed or not, realistic or not, he is a quick learner. Not to mention more dangerous when the legs popped out

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- All the people who said that Windermere wasn't after conquest, boom! You were wrong. Starwind sector established.

That's what I was talking about in the other topic. Unless I missed something there's no such thing as "Starwind sector", that's a mistranslation.* They're talking about air superiority where "air" is replaced by "wind" because that's how Windermere rolls (and because they don't mean "airspace" as such, anyway). What Roid declares at the end of the episode is that by kicking Chaos and NUNS out, and with the new awesome Protoculture tech, they've achieved complete military control over the cluster. He's not talking about conquest and establishing a new administrative territory. (Although of course with Roid's plan of making Heinz the king of the Glorious Protoculture Heirdom that's the eventual aim, but so far he hasn't divulged as to in what form he imagines that happening.)

*The word is "seifuuken", [gg] probably parsed "seifuu" as 星風 (star-wind) but actually it's a wordplay on "seikuuken" (制空権) with "wind" (fuu) instead of "sky/air" (kuu). It makes no sense otherwise.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

So, I’ve just watched the sub and I think this is a very enjoyable episode with some pretty epic action. As for the pluses and minuses, let me get to it:

The Good:

• All the CGI battle sequences are gorgeous, fast and intense. I expect no less from a Macross series post-Zero.
• The usage of the songs in this episode is pretty fun. Usually, throwing pop songs into intense scenes will result in my cringing (like that Walkure hack-singing a while back), but this episode used it just right.
• Thanks Bogue for demonstrating an almost-successful hit-and-run attack to Walkure (that I used in my arguments in a past episode) done by only one valk despite Walkure being in their full capacity and fully guarded. That certainly helped reinforce my problem with the moment-skip after Messer got shot down few episodes back.
• I like the piano ED.

The Bad:

• Unfortunately, aside from some key moments (like Freyja’s dive), I noticed some corner-cuttings and some really derpy handdrawn animation that includes characters faces' looking bad, stilted movements, and mouth-only movements where the bodies and everything else non-CG stood perfectly still. In some places, it almost like the handdrawn animators had given up and didn’t care anymore.

The Mixed Bag:

• I’m torn when it comes to Hayate’s power up. On one hand, I can tolerate it and even enjoy it because he didn’t really pull a power-up outta his rear end by himself. It’s basically due to Freyja’s “magic” help that boosted his skill. On the other hand, I don’t find it particularly good when an MC pilot has to continuously receive “magic” boost from the heroine in order to win difficult battles that’s far outta his league if he only fight by himself. It’s still a plot convenience however you cut it since Freyja’s “serious” singing to Hayate is almost like a DEM that will let the MC get through impossible odds instantly. I hope the show will take that element to some more interesting places and develop it beyond the DEM-like function for Hayate.

[Triple_R]

And in this episode...

Hayate gets Freyja Rolled!*

I'll probably be back to write more later, but I just had to get this sub/photoshop joke off first. I hope people get a laugh out of it!


*Or maybe its more accurate to say that Keith got Freyja Rolled...

[Benigmatica]

For some reason, I felt that the NUNS "botched" bombing of Ragna's Protoculture ruins was part of some conspiracy.

Still, it's sucks that the planet is conquered by the Windermere Kingdom. But hey, at least Hayate Immelman got a score against Keith Aero Windermere even though it could be a fluke! But hey, Hayate can work harder (and a bit of help from Freyja) in order to prove that shooting down the White Knight wasn't a fluke.

[azarhal]

Well this was an interesting episode and I'm not talking about the fighting (although I saw a Beta or Gamma wing destroy something, they are one step above fooders!).

Seems like Hayate's connection to Freyja might actually be the Var Syndrome. We see the same "VAR overtaking brain" animation when he start to "see the wind" with heightened senses. People saying it might be a tool to make super soldiers might not be that far off.

Hayate's "fly like you want" to Mirage has a different meaning that I though. He's actually telling her just be herself and not "it doesn't matter you are crap, there is others here". I'm surprised her plane didn't melt when she went to save Hayate though...

We got a "Birdman" and the word Mayan was said. Poor Windemere, they are going to have a fit when they learn about the Nomes.


Who wasn't to bet that Scarfell hole was a 1st time test to make defold a huge Protoculture structure?

[Triple_R]

Fantastic episode. Lots of fun. Freyja's big moment, and how it powered up Hayate, was wildly wonderful. It was great to see Keith humbled for a change!

I don't really have a problem with what Hayate did in this episode, for a couple reasons:

1. Keith was successfully holding off 3 different opponents at once, for awhile. It's not like this was all one-on-one action between Keith and Hayate. In fact, I liked how this paralleled some of the 3 vs. 1 training that Messer did with Mirage, Hayate, and Chuck a few episodes back.

2. Hayate was powered up by Freyja, and this seemed to be the most heavy duty example of this yet. This is just as much Freyja's victory as it is Hayate's.

The action scenes in this episode were excellent, and lots of fun, but they weren't really a long drawn-out one-on-one dogfight. The way Hayate defeated Keith is something I can easily live with (though it might be good if Keith is dominant in their next encounter).

Now, I'm going to reply to magnuskn to make my other points on this episode.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Alrighty, my thoughts:

- Yep, the NUG/NUNS guy was evil. I wanted to hold off on forming a complete opinion until he actually did something bad and wasn't just off-putting... and there it is. Now the question is if he actually works for the government or really is working for that nebulous faction behind the scenes we haven't really seen yet.

That's a good question. It's certainly possible that he's working for a faction within NUNs, and that faction is the problem.

Also, to play Devil's Adocate here... I don't doubt that there's a broader conspiracy going on, and the NUNs guy is in on it. But if you were to approach the destruction of Ragna's ruins as a desperate attempt to stop Windermere, a decent defense can probably be made of it.

The destruction of those Ragna ruins does not (yet?) appear to be as nightmarish as some speculated. The wider environment does not appear to be particularly hurt by this, and the planet as a whole still seems fine based on how it appears from outer-space in the final scenes of this episode. Yes, the blast radius was big, and there was some nasty damage and causalities caused by it, but its effect does seem fairly localized.

All of this may yet change, but the immediate aftermath of blowing up Ragna's Protoculture ruins does not appear to threaten the planet as a whole. It was actually Windermere's attack, and the widespread Var threat potential posed by it, that was more of a concern to Arad and others in evacuating the Ragna people.

All the people who said that Windermere wasn't after conquest, boom! You were wrong. Starwind sector established. Maybe they'll allow some sort of democracy, but with them being a top-down royalty, I don't see it happening. Now, maybe Roid is a bad guy, maybe he actually is the person most open to outside influence. Given how he reacted to Freyja outsinging Heinz, I'm not sure where to put my money.

Good points here as well. It certainly looks like conquest, and sounds like conquest, to me.

I really hope we get some new songs for the next cour. It'll be interesting to see what the new OP will be like. I wasn't really enamored with Freyja's solo at the start of the last sequence. Mikumo really is the much better singer with a much fuller and better voice.

I strongly disagree with you on Freyja's solo, but I agree with you on getting some new songs for the next cour.

As for romance, both ladies like Hayate, he is totally oblivious about it apparently (Alto at least knew what was going on, although he deliberately ignored it for as long as possible).

How do you know he's oblivious about it? Maybe he's just comfortable with where his relationships are right now, with both Freyja and Mirage, and doesn't want to take any big steps yet. At the same time, showing thanks to your comrades literally saving you, and giving them pep-talks where you think it's needed, is perfectly normal and just a sign of a good soldier/ally.

Sure, there's a romantic vibe to a lot of this, but Hayate's interactions with Freyja and Mirage would be normal even without that. In the midst of a big and important and difficult battle, his words and actions made sense.

Nonetheless, this particular episode scores a perfect 10 out of 10 with me.

For a critic of this show, you sure seem to like it a lot.

And I like it a lot as well. Excellent episode 13!

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- Yep, the NUG/NUNS guy was evil. I wanted to hold off on forming a complete opinion until he actually did something bad and wasn't just off-putting... and there it is. Now the question is if he actually works for the government or really is working for that nebulous faction behind the scenes we haven't really seen yet.

I thought about this and I don't rule it out, however the Windermere manga had Ernest badmouthing the NUG abuses and pressure on them. He's a neutral party and the commander of the current good guys enough to trust his moral standards, you know. It also portrays Gramia as a reasonable authority figure who prefers to obey than risk a war with them, implying that if he doesn't do as they say they would use the force (rather than we have assumed they declared an open war, it's foreshadowing that the war could have started because Gramia refused to some unreasonable demand and the NUNS tried to force them - didn't consider this possibility before until he was concerned about a war if he doesn't comply).

Kawamori has been consistently portraying the NUN higher ups as incompetent or corrupted or plain evil lately just to prop up his mercenary band of underdogs. At this point, looks they need an overhaul in general. Maybe this show could lead to this? I'm a little tired of Evil NUG General Guy. Not ruling out the possibility that he's a member of another shady group (we have Epsilon around) too, but the whole NUG are jerks started waaaay before this insolate incident.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- All the people who said that Windermere wasn't after conquest, boom! You were wrong. Starwind sector established. Maybe they'll allow some sort of democracy, but with them being a top-down royalty, I don't see it happening. Now, maybe Roid is a bad guy, maybe he actually is the person most open to outside influence. Given how he reacted to Freyja outsinging Heinz, I'm not sure where to put my money.

I'm pretty sure that some of us mentioned Keith doesn't give a damn about conquest or protoculture, and his goal is "make Windermere great again." Roid is another case, he's the one who buys into the whole heir of protoculture thing. Yeah, we don't know which side he'll bat, but I'm more inclined to believe that Keith will be your befriended enemy, despite killing Messer: he survived his duel, was defeated fairly early, already broke his mask and is concerned openly over Heinz (he was just kuudere). He seems to have his own arc about his brother and, like I brought up earlier, he is a main character, with his own POV manga. Heinz is the key piece in all this: Freyja wants to reach for him to end the war (with Hayate's full approval on this plan) plus he'll be the disputed between Roid and Keith, imo. Keith and Roid have given turns. With Roid shady faces and position behind the King before he dies and Keith finally showing open concern for Heinz as a brother. Here's another "triangle."

kuromitsu already made a clarification. A lot suffers from the translation job, IMO.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

- I really hope we get some new songs for the next cour. It'll be interesting to see what the new OP will be like. I wasn't really enamored with Freyja's solo at the start of the last sequence. Mikumo really is the much better singer with a much fuller and better voice.

Freyja solo part was fine. She was running and hypervilating and realistically would sound like that. That's harder to pull off because she had to add the jumps on her voice. I do prefer JUNNA's voice but because I like the pitch more, hats off to Minori for that.

That scene also vaguely reminded me to Sheryl's rushing after Alto's falling plane, singing Obelisk.

[D-Joe]

Originally Posted by Thess

I'm pass from expecting Mirage to stand out like Freyja and Hayate as hero, because the staff isn't obviously invested in this, IMO. I just want her character to develop and grow. Kaname could do it without taking the spotlight too.

But Kaname did took the spotlight, even only few minutes.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by D-Joe

But Kaname did took the spotlight, even only few minutes.

She's also an idol.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Also, to play Devil's Adocate here... I don't doubt that there's a broader conspiracy going on, and the NUNs guy is in on it. But if you were to approach the destruction of Ragna's ruins as a desperate attempt to stop Windermere, a decent defense can probably be made of it.

The destruction of those Ragna ruins does not (yet?) appear to be as nightmarish as some speculated. The wider environment does not appear to be particularly hurt by this, and the planet as a whole still seems fine based on how it appears from outer-space in the final scenes of this episode. Yes, the blast radius was big, and there was some nasty damage and causalities caused by it, but its effect does seem fairly localized.

I think you misunderstood this. That guy never actually tried to destroy the ruins or stop Winderemere's forces. He was following an agenda and lied about assisting them against the invasion: he merely wanted to see Windermere ship resonating with the ruins, so to do it, he blew up some people (including civilians and his own) to have the ruins emerge. He was pleased with the results, got his info and left Ragna to Windermere.

I'm fairly sure he and whoever he's with will be revealed as the ones behind the cool looking hole incident. It's obvious Gramia wasn't involved, considering his strong reaction against those who harm their own people and pollute the world. Maybe they just used too much power there and ended up causing that hole, destroying the ruins in the area, or maybe the lack of ship hovering over the ruins led to that result. Then they rushed to cover the incident by claiming Windermere has "dimensional weapons" (which are nowhere to be seen, btw) and put an embargo for good measure. They already bombed their people and civilian under the excuse to run an experiments, it's likely not the first time doing it.

The question is now: What exactly are they looking for?

[Triple_R]

Roid's final scene in this episode was interesting.

On the one hand, he really did seem genuinely concerned about his fallen King. He also was very respectful in how he handled Gramia's apparent death.

On the other hand, what Roid said about Gramia's "last will" might have been a convenient lie. It's possible Gramia really did say "Roid, should I die soon, I entrust Windermere and its war efforts to you" off-screen, but we don't have any evidence of it, so...

Even as someone who's been very critical of Windermere, I haven't been getting much of a villain vibe off of Roid. If his goals are villainous, he's been hiding it very well. Perhaps he's just a misguided idealist.

[tsunade666]

Excellent episode. Its action pack and loved the songs that had been played. I liked every scene. From the start till the end. I'm even fine with Hayate winning against white knight. But the scene before he goes SS on white knite is really vaguely like a var infection. Reminds me of Messar without the over bulk trunks ss. hayte goes ss2 with freyja song I also liked the scene where she jumps to sing. That is really exciting but I also can't help but feel that she would ended up dying if she over used her rune. Or rather, she is already overusing it. 30 years life span and if the rune is somehow indicated to their health, like the prince/shota/trap/king/brat is any indication. overusing it is bad. so I won't be surprised if she would gone ill at the 3/4's of the series or when its nearing its end. But by the end, it would be magically cured by protoculture magic. Then if it turned into movie. she would die.

[s07195]

The feeling of finality for the first half of the show is really evident at the end of the episode. I had a really great time with this episode. Even Hayate's power up didn't bother me as much as I thought because Keith wasn't at full concentration or at least not 'in the zone' the same way as the Messer fight. Also, that part was shown as quite a struggle.

I haven't really got a problem with Mirage being support type character because I think main characters can be support type, such as Fumina in Gundam Build Fighters Try. I'm really glad she got more spotlight this episode, although I thought Chuck would be the one in the spotlight this time thanks to his personal connection with Ragna.

Oh man though, this fight was intense!!!! Finally the legendary Macross Cannon gets fired and scores a mighty hit on the Sigur Valens!

...I don't think Roid is the bad guy.

EDIT: That sequence where Hayate powers up is shown with the VAR syndrome type thing where his nerves turn purple or something. It reminds me of Messer's VAR syndrome where it turned purple from red, while Hayate just goes straight to purple from blue (unaffected by VAR). Windemerean singing really is something.

Also, is Rune pika some kind of berserk state for Windemereans?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Even as someone who's been very critical of Windermere, I haven't been getting much of a villain vibe off of Roid. If his goals are villainous, he's been hiding it very well. Perhaps he's just a misguided idealist.

I think most of us suspect of Roid because Keith will likely end up teaming up with Chaos. Freyja wants to reach Heinz, and she would never accomplish this if you harm his precious big brother. Roid must be a traitor for the tearful confrontation and plus Heinz-tugging, sadly. I noted above that Keith's mask slipped and revealed he cared about Heinz (just this month they also timely published how Keith was teaching Heinz how to walk and acted like a super dotting oniisan). I like Roid more as character, but Keith has more flags of being the enemy who turns (and likely resonates with Heinz). Freyja's song reached three people specifically this episode: Heinz, Hayate and Keith. I'm sure this is important.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Thess

I think you misunderstood this. That guy never actually tried to destroy the ruins or stop Winderemere's forces. He was following an agenda and lied about assisting them against the invasion: he merely wanted to see Windermere ship resonating with the ruins, so to do it, he blew up some people (including civilians and his own) to have the ruins emerge.

True. Don't worry, I get that. This particular guy is clearly meant to be viewed in a villainous light. My point is that he might be lying to his own higher-ups as well.

He might also be telling them that he's doing this to try to stop Windermere, and provided some degree of evidence to suggest that the damage to Ragna would be minimal. If so, he can now go back to his higher-ups and say "Yeah, sorry guys, it apparently wasn't enough to stop Windermere. But hey, at least it didn't do too much damage to Ragna".

In other words, if this NUNs guy is working for a shadowy faction, I can understand NUNs possibly falling for it. Could be like Section 31 within the wider Federation of Star Trek.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

True. Don't worry, I get that. This particular guy is clearly meant to be viewed in a villainous light. My point is that he might be lying to his own higher-ups as well.

Yeah I consider it, but see, Ernest is badmouthing the NUG in the Windermere manga and Gramia is painted as a noble and reasonable authority figure there who is trying to not have his people get involved into a war.

Without knowing that, I'll definitely give the NUG a more leeway and think it's just another Leon. But it might be bigger than just one guy and his secret club. Sure one guy and his section might be the main antagonist, but they need a more structural overhaul or a compromise to change certain politics (this happened once in Macross 7, when it became decentralized after a lot of hideous mistakes).

Originally Posted by Triple_R

He might also be telling them that he's doing this to try to stop Windermere, and provided some degree of evidence to suggest that the damage to Ragna would be minimal. If so, he can now go back to his higher-ups and say "Yeah, sorry guys, it apparently wasn't enough to stop Windermere. But hey, at least it didn't do too much damage to Ragna".

He probably wants to avoid another accident that would get attention. See Windermere. Because if Chaos survived, they cannot longer claim Windermere used Dimensional Weapons on a planet, huh?

[Triple_R]

A couple more notes, including an anime recommendation.

There's another non-Macross Kawamori work that Delta has made me think of before, but no episode made me think of it as much as Episode 13 did. For any viewer that loved Delta Episode 13, I'd strongly recommend Aquarion EVOL. The overall tone and style of this show's action scenes is very similar to EVOL's.

I especially recommend Aquarion EVOL to anybody who likes Delta, but wishes it had more romance drama (as EVOL has that in flying colors).


One other note I want to make - Delta is doing an incredible job of making both of the two main sides look impressive and competent. Never did a military lost feel as fun and victorious as it did here, for Delta Squadron and Walkure.

It's easy to forget in the midst of Hayate getting Freyja Rolled, but Windermere just keeps winning. They're winning the war, and in this episode, they've won again. Hayate gained a measure of victory over Keith, but Windermere has effectively taken Ragna, and forced chaos (and Ragna's people) into retreat.

Whatever I think of Windermere at a moral level, they're highly effective antagonists, so on the whole, they're a credit to the show.

Originally Posted by Thess

Without knowing that, I'll definitely give the NUG a more leeway and think it's just another Leon. But it might be bigger than just one guy and his secret club. Sure one guy and his section might be the main antagonist, but they need a more structural overhaul or a compromise to change certain politics (this happened once in Macross 7, when it became decentralized after a lot of hideous mistakes).

Fair points. Perhaps NUNs does need a structural overhaul.

[Wandering Soul]

Fantastic episode. Liked the songs and the fights. I'm actually fine with how Hayate won. He won thanks to Freyja's song, but they also still portrayed Keith as a serious threat. It's not really just Hayate's victory, but both his and Freyja's victory.

To no one's surprise NUNs really does have it's own agenda, though to be fair it could be a faction inside NUNs rather than the organization as a whole,

[Karutaku]

Originally Posted by Thess

Fans want her to be an Ace because she's a Jenius, but that's clearly not her role. She's more a support who will have Freyja's and Hayate's backs in the battlefield. I liked her progress. Even if she's not showing off like those two.

Maybe she should be better in an XO post on the Elysion... like Misa?

[D-Joe]

Originally Posted by Thess

She's also an idol.

Well i'm not saying she need to be hero, but i do want to see her more than just supporting since she's...well, main character.
No need to do something huge, just shot down someone like that annoying red windermere guy will be nice.