Macross Delta - Episode 3 Discussion / Poll

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

As for a possible angle I can see a Mirage/Hayate romance going, I'd imagine that it would be a transition of the carefree, irresponsible Hayata into someone who has seen the horrors of war and appreciates how Mirage is symbolizing the people who take protecting innocents as serious business.

Kinda like Rick and Lisa, errr, Hikaru and Misa (I'll never really get used to their Japanese names, I swear). Hopefully Hayate would turn out to be less of a cheating mysogynist than Hikaru.

Cheating misogynist?
I think it's been a long time you saw the original Macross.
If anyone cheated on the other it was Minmay first. Albeit they both did a bad job at breakup for sure.

Anyways, I don't see the first scenario playing out with Hayate/Mirrage. Or that Hikaru and Misa hooked up that way. Hikaru was pretty much treated like shit by Minmay while he gradually found a common ground with Misa. DYRL treats this a bit less nicely but I don't quite agree that Hikaru actually cheated on her even in the movie.

Back to Hayate/Mirrage. There are obvious parallels but that's kind of the way with nearly all Macross series. If you really wish to break down there's always a sweet/idealist and a mature/realist choice in the triangle. Minmay (ideal) vs Misa (real). Basara (ideal) vs Gamlin (real). Ranka (sweet) vs Sheryl (mature). At first sight the odds seem to be stacked for the ideal/real choice but it's far less determined (Albeit can explain why so many people root for Mirage when up till this episode we had little to no interactions). If Delta follows suit then a Mirrage/Hayate pairing would be possible as he and Freya gradually grow apart due to various events or eventually find out they don't quite work together. Meanwhile Hayate buddies up with Mirrage and it eventually grows into a relationship. Most likely as a Max/Millia style battle couple.

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

It wasn't a boost in piloting skills but rather he gained an inspiration. Then there's also the fact that Alto got "powered up" by fold waves before and Hayato does have a fold quartz amulet.
We did see that Hayato has decent control so he only needed a nudge in the right direction to utilize his skills to the fullest.

I disagree, Mirage's intention for having him take the test so early in his training was to make him fail and send him home, and at first in the test he was flying with AI assistance and not doing a very good job against Mirage, the moment he turned it off he couldn't even control his plane and was going to crash, he listened to Freyja's song and everything changed.
He has been learning how to fly for less than a month and then suddenly he can do a cobra, something that was a bit difficult for Shin in Macross Zero.

Alto was never "powered up" by Sheryl and Ranka's songs, the earring only made it able for him to listen to them, and to spread the music further, like in the second movie with the Vajra Queen, or when he reached Ranka to wake her up in the last episode, but his skills only improved by training, and unlike Hayate, Alto was already a pilot thanks to the lessons at Mihoshi Academy, then it was thanks to SMS and some harsh training (harsher thanks to Michael haha) that he became a fighter pilot.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Elazul

I share your point. Apparently, Freyja and Hayate have similar personalities/souls. Both are free-spirited people, they just want to follow their hearts and realize their dreams. Mirage, on the other side, seems to be really strict, probably sometimes going overboard willing to put duty above all else.

Well, if we want to live on a healthy society, sometimes we have to put our ego aside for the greater good; we have to follow the rules right? Hayate seems to be really sociable, but skipping extremely important lessons was just plain wrong. His job is to protect someone's life, so he should know that failure means death. Therefore, I believe Mr. Arad was right to put Hayate and Mirage together, since they have opposite personalities and different views about the world, they will learn with each other and in the end it will help to broaden their horizons.

I think it worked much, much better than it had any right to. Mirage resented Hayate and wanted him to fail. Hayate had very little respect for her (among other reasons, because it's rather hard to respect someone who so visibly despises you). It's a miracle he learned anything. He owes it all to the cat.

[magnuskn]

@Willy: I was talking about Hikaru's behaviour in regards to Misa, not Minmay.

[Somnus]

With all he praise being showered for this episode, I don't think I really have anything to add to it that isn't just mimicking what's already been said. That being what it is, I will chime in to fawn over Freyja!

I honestly didn't like Ranka at all in Frontier, but I adore Freyja to bits. BITS. I was very much Team Mirage during the promo days (I didn't watch the preview episode), but I have completely jumped ship now.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

@Willy: I was talking about Hikaru's behaviour in regards to Misa, not Minmay.

Yeah, he was indecisive as hell late in the series.
Admittedly that was just because they realized they need to extend the series with a few more episodes for syndication. Thus they decided to stretch the love triangle even when it should've been decided.

Also Mysoginist is a bit archaic use there. The usual behavior to women was different in the 80s.
Man, did you watch the first Mazinger series? Koji's treatment of Sayaka would make your hair stand up in comparison.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think it worked much, much better than it had any right to. Mirage resented Hayate and wanted him to fail. Hayate had very little respect for her (among other reasons, because it's rather hard to respect someone who so visibly despises you). It's a miracle he learned anything. He owes it all to the cat.

Petty sure the implication was that Hayate and Mirage's differing world views will be instructive in the future, regardless of how he managed to learn anything when he skipped out on every lesson that didn't involve actually being behind the controls of a jet. I think the fact that he is the protagonist and has a magical idol singer backing him up has more to do with it than the cat.

[Tenzen12]

It didn't look she want him flunk that much. Nah, that's not it she did look she want, but she worked pretty hard to teach him all this stuff, even though Hayato didn't show either talent nor effort (she was pretty respectable instructor). Duel wasn't something done out of spite, but more like his last chance show he has what it takes before kicking him out from Delta squadron for lack of... well, everything

Edit: Let's not forget this test was approved and supervised by these very guys who invited Hayato Int ∆.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Also Mysoginist is a bit archaic use there. The usual behavior to women was different in the 80s.

It doesn't matter. It's still misogyny.

Anyway, I don't expect any of that crap cropping in on Delta. The times have changed, fortunately.

[ryllharu]

Anyone else catch Freyja's question about where Mikumo lives? Ms. Buccaneer playfully admitting she doesn't know either.

Could it be that Mikumo is older than she looks and actually married? Possibly even a child?

She also noticeably does not have an age listed on the official site, unlike every other character.

edit:
Or maybe she's Sharon V2.0 with the crazy extracted.

She might also be a secret Fire Bomber superfan, who spends all her free time trolling zentradi Ranka fans on the web.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Dash_Hunter

I disagree, Mirage's intention for having him take the test so early in his training was to make him fail and send him home

It wasn't early. She was given a month to teach him by Arad and the month was coming to an end.

She expected him to fail because in all the practical classes he attend (which is all he attended) he showed zero talent and no improvements.

What happened at the end of this episode is basically in Macross Zero floating rocks territory.

[willyvereb]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It doesn't matter. It's still misogyny.

Anyway, I don't expect any of that crap cropping in on Delta. The times have changed, fortunately.

I guess homosexuality is still a capital sin punishable by death.
society and people change. If you try to apply your standards to the past then expect those to be rather inept.
Do you also get angry when women get no right to vote in a historical movie?

I don't excuse Hikaru's behavior. But let's just say that was the sort of crap you could get in the 80s from a loose cannon like him.

Originally Posted by azarhal

It wasn't early. She was given a month to teach him by Arad and the month was coming to an end.

She expected him to fail because in all the practical classes he attend (which is all he attended) he showed zero talent and no improvements.

What happened at the end of this episode is basically in Macross Zero floating rocks territory.

Um, again, am I the only person who watched the first episode?
Hayate has the talents and skills to succeed. And he certainly no longer struggled at basic maneuvers during the mock battle (when the AI was turned on).
Your surprise that he can actually pull up maneuvers way easier he did in the first episode of the series is quite a jarring reaction.

[Alhazred]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Um, again, am I the only person who watched the first episode?
Hayate has the talents and skills to succeed. And he certainly no longer struggled at basic maneuvers during the mock battle (when the AI was turned on).
Your surprise that he can actually pull up maneuvers way easier he did in the first episode of the series is quite a jarring reaction.

...his jet was totally out of control and he was plunging to his death, and then when Freyja starts singing for him in a sound stage somewhere far from the fight he hears her, despite no apparent audio feed, and is suddenly able to regain control and perfectly execute maneuvers that he could not do just seconds previous. It's hard to see his success as attributable solely to innate talent and whatever skills he managed to learn during his self-sabotaged training.

I kinda wonder how important this ineffable "feel the wind" mysticism is going to be in this series, since Chuck mentions it again after the fight and he outright asks if that's why Arad paired Hayate with Mirage. That question could be taken a few different ways and could reflect on Arad's assessment of either Hayate or Mirage, though Arad just gives the standard, mysteriously noncommittal response.

[willyvereb]

He has a fold quartz while Freya's singing produces a fold resonance. Of course he hears him. Don't you remember Alto hearing Ranka and Sheryl's song the same way?
Yeah, evading missiles in a split second or break-dancing away from bullets is so much easier than stabilizing a plane.
Let's put it this way. If Alto were in Hayate's situation he'd be long dead before any help could arrive. In spite of him actually knowing how to fly and training in EX-Gear to be familiarized with Valkyries.

Mind the fact that stabilizing the plane and performing simple maneuvers is the only thing Hayate practiced in the month. Sure, it wasn't enough at first but after hearing Freya's song he got inspired and immediately got his act together. If you notice he makes a well-timed transformation back to Gerwalk and uses its thrusters to stop his fall via brute force before speeding towards the direction of the sun. Hayate began using his strengths which is controlling the mech and feeling the flow via dancing moves. Also since he can "feel the wind" he no longer struggles with aerodynamics. Just like he could read the wind and timed his jump in the previous episode just when the upburst could lift him up.
If you find this magical or asspull then you have rather low standards at it.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

Petty sure the implication was that Hayate and Mirage's differing world views will be instructive in the future, regardless of how he managed to learn anything when he skipped out on every lesson that didn't involve actually being behind the controls of a jet. I think the fact that he is the protagonist and has a magical idol singer backing him up has more to do with it than the cat.

Well, sure, it may have played a role, but the cat was his wax-on-wax-off master. He should name it Miyagi.

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

It didn't look she want him flunk that much. Nah, that's not it she did look she want, but she worked pretty hard to teach him all this stuff, even though Hayato didn't show either talent nor effort (she was pretty respectable instructor).

Yes, she at least had the integrity to obey a direct order to instruct him. And not half-ass it, which I suppose is praiseworthy. Her feelings on the matter were still pretty clear.

Duel wasn't something done out of spite,

Oh, it totally was out of spite. Do you seriously think she's a robot? She has feelings, and they were pretty set against him. Not that he hadn't earned it by then, but she was against him before that.

but more like his last chance show he has what it takes before kicking him out from Delta squadron for lack of... well, everything

Edit: Let's not forget this test was approved and supervised by these very guys who invited Hayato Int ∆.

Frankly, the whole thing's a mess. Just because Arad invited him with really stupid terms doesn't mean the rest of the squad would accept those terms, or that they were remotely acceptable to start with. But Hayate warned them about how he was, so why would he change?

So inviting him like that? Not really fair to anyone, including Hayate.

So Arad's stamp of approval on the test really doesn't carry much weight in the fairness department.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Also Mysoginist is a bit archaic use there. The usual behavior to women was different in the 80s.
Man, did you watch the first Mazinger series? Koji's treatment of Sayaka would make your hair stand up in comparison.

True enough, I let my current feelings on the matter influence my writing. As a historian, I know how important it is to view things in the context of the time.

In that context, Hikaru was just a rude asshole to Misa for quite a long time. Then he got better. Sometimes.

[willyvereb]

Mirrage certainly had a beef against Hayate but in the end she was professional. She suggested the duel both to test him and face him with realities and also to sate her anger. Yes, she was spiteful and was mean to him but she did this in mind to show Hayate there's nothing to be smug about. You could say she attempted to break in the newbie while also grew increasingly disastified with him. He was a yahoo in a job which demanded outmost skill.
I don't think being nice to Hayate would've brought any different results. As shown with Messer's last act, being mean with Hayate and showing him the realities actually does work and sobbers him up. His ego needed quite a bit of chipping in order to make him listen.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by willyvereb

Mirrage certainly had a beef against Hayate but in the end she was professional. She suggested the duel both to test him and face him with realities and also to sate her anger. Yes, she was spiteful and was mean to him but she did this in mind to show Hayate there's nothing to be smug about. You could say she attempted to break in the newbie while also grew increasingly disastified with him. He was a yahoo in a job which demanded outmost skill.
I don't think being nice to Hayate would've brought any different results. As shown with Messer's last act, being mean with Hayate and showing him the realities actually does work and sobbers him up. His ego needed quite a bit of chipping in order to make him listen.

I'm not sure his change in attitude can really be attributed to Messer. After all, Mirage spent a month being mean to him without effects.

Maybe it was victory - and being more secure in his job - that changed him. Maybe it was being reminded of how nice flying could be, at least when Freyja's singing.

Or maybe, yes, it was Messer, but only because he earned the #1 place on Hayate's shit list, so he felt he had to be nicer to Freyja.

[Elazul]

Mirage seemed to be a bit resentful with Hayate, but if she ever wanted him to fail, it was not to see his disgrace. She probably thought that a person as carefree as Hayate's is not fit for the squadron. Also, Hayate doesn't seem to be the kind of person who stays mad with someone else for too long. After winning the dogfight he apologized and smiled to Mirage, even surprising her. So, at least for now, Hayate is willing to socialize with her. I suppose she will probably soften up a bit more in the future episodes as well, So I believe there is some good potential in their interactions.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yes, she at least had the integrity to obey a direct order to instruct him. And not half-ass it, which I suppose is praiseworthy. Her feelings on the matter were still pretty clear.


Oh, it totally was out of spite. Do you seriously think she's a robot? She has feelings, and they were pretty set against him. Not that he hadn't earned it by then, but she was against him before that.


Frankly, the whole thing's a mess. Just because Arad invited him with really stupid terms doesn't mean the rest of the squad would accept those terms, or that they were remotely acceptable to start with. But Hayate warned them about how he was, so why would he change?

So inviting him like that? Not really fair to anyone, including Hayate.

So Arad's stamp of approval on the test really doesn't carry much weight in the fairness department.

I am pretty sure she really enjoyed shooting him again and again. But that's it. Everything else regarding that duel looked as pure professionalism (putting aside her feelings regarding it's result).

As for Arad, my point was he wanted him in squadron. Fair or not he has no reason go along Mirage proposal involving kicking him out, if he believed it's just her bias speaking.