Konohas strongest Jounin??

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Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Since when was Sarutobi stronger than Orochimaru? The 8th Gate gives the user power equal to or more than a Hokage level individual but that doesn't correlate to an 8th gate user necessarily being better than someone like Sarutobi. And there is a difference. Communication is important when differentiating the meanings behind speech. Kakashi said Lee was a genius for being able to open up to what... 5 gates during the chuunin exam prelims? He didn't say he was a genius at opening them which implies something else. That just means he can do it easily, which is nothing special. I don't see how a suicide attack like the 8th gate means someone is the strongest jounin, what good is he after he's dead and only used his trump card attack to take the other down with him? That's just desperation.

Sarutobi has been stronger from day, Sarutobi could have beaten Oro when he fled Konoha but didnt and lost to Oro mainly because of the other 2 hokages and Enma implied that Sarutobi seemed to be holding back and lets not forget old age.
Kakashi said that "by opening all 8 gates you could obtain power beyond even the hokages"...this includes Sarutobi. If youre stronger than someone youre able to beat them, When Chouji used the red pill at the time he was stronger than that sound four nin and was able to defeat him regardless of the after affects.

[Yellowflash221]

^Doesn't matter anyway. We've only seen Gai go up to 6 gates so as far as we know that's his limit. Until we see Gai go 8 gates we don't know whether or not he can do it.

[tatami]

i think what people understand from the word strong differs...

being fast can beat raw power...or using special techs beats other things like

a jyuuken hit is more effective and dangerous than a single punch.
but a genjutsu can be more useful and practical than a punch.
even if you open 8 gates if you caught on genjutsu what good it would do?
a kunai is more dangerous then a rasengan or chidori if the user got more speed then the other.
so what makes a nin strong is that how he or she uses his techs and weapons.

in that case no one is stronger then other cuz everyone has a weakness...

kakashi is low on stamina , gai is stupid ,kurenai is low on raw power,shika is the same etc.

everyone has a weakness so no one is the strongest jounin. IMO

[reloaded]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

^Doesn't matter anyway. We've only seen Gai go up to 6 gates so as far as we know that's his limit. Until we see Gai go 8 gates we don't know whether or not he can do it.

Well the 7th gate (insanity gate) and the 8th gate (death gate) dont have very nice rings to them so I wouldnt blame him for going up to six. Many things are unknown but it doesnt neccasarily mean they dont exist. We have seen most of Kakashi's tricks but maybe not all of Gai's. Gai may never go to 8 gates only to probably die for Rock Lee can I see him doing that but apart from that scenario im doubtful youll ever see it. I wouldnt be surprised if the 7th gate had a downfall to it aswell. I believe that Gai can unlock atleast the 7th gate if he wished and this would probably be enough to beat Kakashi aswell.

Originally Posted by tatami

kakashi is low on stamina , gai is stupid ,kurenai is low on raw power,shika is the same etc.

everyone has a weakness so no one is the strongest jounin. IMO

...or you could see who has more weaknesses than the other. Naruto is slow (mentally) and Choujis weakness is food but if they were to fight Naruto would be strongest.

[Yellowflash221]

Originally Posted by reloaded

Well the 7th gate (insanity gate) and the 8th gate (death gate) dont have very nice rings to them so I wouldnt blame him for going up to six. Many things are unknown but it doesnt neccasarily mean they dont exist. We have seen most of Kakashi's tricks but maybe not all of Gai's. Gai may never go to 8 gates only to probably die for Rock Lee can I see him doing that but apart from that scenario im doubtful youll ever see it. I wouldnt be surprised if the 7th gate had a downfall to it aswell. I believe that Gai can unlock atleast the 7th gate if he wished and this would probably be enough to beat Kakashi aswell.

Are you forgetting that Kakashi is called the copy ninja for knowing over a thousand jutsus? We have barely seen any of those one thousand jutsus. For all we know he could have copied the most powerful jutsu but that would be speculating just like you saying we haven't seen all of Gai's tricks. Until we see more from Gai and Kakashi there's no point in assuming what they can do that we haven't seen.

We can't assume he can go higher than 6 gates but we also can't assume he can't go above 6 gates. Assuming things doesn't make them right. Unless we are told Gai can go higher than 6 gates or he can't we don't know so stop speculating.

Originally Posted by reloaded

...or you could see who has more weaknesses than the other. Naruto is slow (mentally) and Choujis weakness is food but if they were to fight Naruto would be strongest.

Lol.True.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

Sarutobi stronger than Orochimaru.IMO Sarutobi clearly would have won that fight with Orochimaru if it wasn't for his old age and him having to fight two hokages while fighting Orochimaru and he still managed to seal Orochimaru's hand.

On the issue of the gates. They don't make Gai greater than the other jounins. Using the 8th gate ends in a tie which means at best he's equal to the strongest jounin using the 8th gate.

He would have won if he didnt have to fight Shodaime and Nidaime + Orochimaru but their summoning is in effect an ability of Orochimaru's, just like how Sarutobi summoned Enma to help him during that fight was an ability of his. We're not matching characters based on their abilities WITHOUT the use of their jutsus at their disposal, unfortunately, because that would mean Sasuke and Itachi are nothing without their Sharingans. They weren't the real versions so its safe to assume they weren't as strong as the originals. That's like asking one's self would Gai be able to beat a true Kisame without his gates? Probably not but any fan would dictate that he can because he has the ABILITY to kill himself and take Kisame with him.

[Yellowflash221]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

He would have won if he didnt have to fight Shodaime and Nidaime + Orochimaru but their summoning is in effect an ability of Orochimaru's, just like how Sarutobi summoned Enma to help him during that fight was an ability of his. We're not matching characters based on their abilities WITHOUT the use of their jutsus at their disposal, unfortunately, because that would mean Sasuke and Itachi are nothing without their Sharingans. They weren't the real versions so its safe to assume they weren't as strong as the originals. That's like asking one's self would Gai be able to beat a true Kisame without his gates? Probably not but any fan would dictate that he can because he has the ABILITY to kill himself and take Kisame with him.

I suppose you have a point but Orochimaru's summoning only works with preparation. If Sandaime had been the one attacking Orochimaru he wouldn't have had the time to prepare the two hokages. Orochimaru's summoning counts but they need preparation time so in a battle where Orochimaru doesn't have the time to prepare the hokages he would have lost to Sarutobi. In the battle during the invasion of Konaha Orochimaru was the victor but I'm saying Sarutobi would have one if he was the one attacking Orochimaru.

[tatami]

@reloaded

then again it doesnt make naruto strongest as he was pwned by sasuke...

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by tatami

@reloaded

then again it doesnt make naruto strongest as he was pwned by sasuke...

Yeah, but even Sasuke had to walk as a zombie all the way to Orochimaru's place. How the hell did he find it anyway.....were there signs out there? Oro's place! 500m ahead.

[neji122793]

im new but i think gai is one of the best jounin

[Yellowflash221]

Originally Posted by neji122793

im new but i think gai is one of the best jounin

Welcome I'm new here too.
Yes Gai is one of the best jounins but we're discussing who is the best?

Do you think Gai is better than all the other jounins?

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

I suppose you have a point but Orochimaru's summoning only works with preparation. If Sandaime had been the one attacking Orochimaru he wouldn't have had the time to prepare the two hokages. Orochimaru's summoning counts but they need preparation time so in a battle where Orochimaru doesn't have the time to prepare the hokages he would have lost to Sarutobi. In the battle during the invasion of Konaha Orochimaru was the victor but I'm saying Sarutobi would have one if he was the one attacking Orochimaru.

Like-wise, learning an ability to use in battle takes training... isn't that a form of preperation as well? But what's the point in going over such details when a linear storyline is put in place for us, where we can't do anything about it.

[Yellowflash221]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

Like-wise, learning an ability to use in battle takes training... isn't that a form of preperation as well? But what's the point in going over such details when a linear storyline is put in place for us, where we can't do anything about it.

You know this is a great example of how one character isn't necessarily stronger than the other. Sarutobi could have won if they fought on equal terms. Meaning if they both had time to prepare or no preparation time at all Sarutobi would have had the advantage. You can't determine which character is stronger when two characters are as close in power as Kakashi and Gai. It could go either way depending on the circumstances.

Anyway I still think Sarutobi>Orochimaru and Kakashi>Gai.

[Medalist]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

You know this is a great example of how one character isn't necessarily stronger than the other. Sarutobi could have won if they fought on equal terms. Meaning if they both had time to prepare or no preparation time at all Sarutobi would have had the advantage. You can't determine which character is stronger when two characters are as close in power as Kakashi and Gai. It could go either way depending on the circumstances.

Anyway I still think Sarutobi>Orochimaru and Kakashi>Gai.

For Sarutobi and Oro...Sarutobi would only win because he taught alot to Orochimaru and most likely knew alot about him. As of equal terms, Villiany doesn't work that way sadly ... Kakashi, the quiet perv, is trickier and smarter than he leads on, i'd say he's only stronger than Gai because of his ability to be fast on his feet, and set you up into a trap.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

You know this is a great example of how one character isn't necessarily stronger than the other. Sarutobi could have won if they fought on equal terms. Meaning if they both had time to prepare or no preparation time at all Sarutobi would have had the advantage. You can't determine which character is stronger when two characters are as close in power as Kakashi and Gai. It could go either way depending on the circumstances.

Anyway I still think Sarutobi>Orochimaru and Kakashi>Gai.

I'd say Orochimaru > Sarutobi simply because the 3rd was an old man.

Originally Posted by reloaded

Sarutobi has been stronger from day, Sarutobi could have beaten Oro when he fled Konoha but didnt and lost to Oro mainly because of the other 2 hokages and Enma implied that Sarutobi seemed to be holding back and lets not forget old age.
Kakashi said that "by opening all 8 gates you could obtain power beyond even the hokages"...this includes Sarutobi. If youre stronger than someone youre able to beat them, When Chouji used the red pill at the time he was stronger than that sound four nin and was able to defeat him regardless of the after affects.

Only regardless to you, trading your life to take out your enemy isn't a win.

[Yellowflash221]

Originally Posted by That Other Ninja

I'd say Orochimaru > Sarutobi simply because the 3rd was an old man.

An old man who managed to beat two hokages and seal the arms of the genius sannin. Sarutobi is called the "God of Shinobi" and "The Professor" while Orochimaru shares his title of "Sannin" with Tsunade and Jiraiya.
Orochimaru used two indestructable summons, a sword and his jutsus and barely managed to survive the fight with Sarutobi. Orochimaru didn't beat Sarutobi, he merely outlasted the old man.

Sarutobi>Orochimaru.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

An old man who managed to beat two hokages and seal the arms of the genius sannin. Sarutobi is called the "God of Shinobi" and "The Professor" while Orochimaru shares his title of "Sannin" with Tsunade and Jiraiya.
Orochimaru used two indestructable summons, a sword and his jutsus and barely managed to survive the fight with Sarutobi. Orochimaru didn't beat Sarutobi, he merely outlasted the old man.

Sarutobi>Orochimaru.

Again, you're comparing them based on point of views and not on the events that have unfolded. He managed to beat two "hokages", not the originals. Yes, he sealed his arms... at what cost? Orochimaru did outlast Sarutobi who was dead the minute he attempted to seal Orochimaru with the Fuin Jutsu the 4th used. He killed himself in an attempt to kill his student. So as you said, Orochimaru didn't "beat" Sarutobi, but just the same did he beat Orochimaru? In any event, the title of greatest shinobi Konoha ever produced has already been taken. It's like comparing Joe Louis to Rocky Marciano, some say Joe's the best there was in his prime but he couldn't hope to beat Marciano who was 9 years his junior when they fought.

[othafa]

I have to agree with that other ninja. The sound 4 sealed in two ninja's. When their jutsu was over, only one ninja was still alive, and that was orochimaru. Seems to me that orochimaru defeated sarutobi in a 1-on-1 fight, which makes him stronger.

[billbrown]

It was implied several times that Sarutobi was holding back during the fight and was severely handicapped having to fight against two Hokages, both of which featured no lack of skill, power or full range of their abilities.

Quite easily, Sarutobi>>>Orochimaru. What happened was Sarutobi<Oro+Two Hokages. It took that much to barely beat Sarutobi and he damn near took Oro with him anyway. The fight was hardly ever a 1v1 matchup, it was stacked against Sarutobi the moment the edo tensei came into play.

As for jounins, Kakashi is probably the strongest due to his overall prowess+sharingan.

[CeDeR]

Originally Posted by Yellowflash221

An old man who managed to beat two hokages and seal the arms of the genius sannin. Sarutobi is called the "God of Shinobi" and "The Professor" while Orochimaru shares his title of "Sannin" with Tsunade and Jiraiya.
Orochimaru used two indestructable summons, a sword and his jutsus and barely managed to survive the fight with Sarutobi. Orochimaru didn't beat Sarutobi, he merely outlasted the old man.

Sarutobi>Orochimaru.

easy, who is still alive??
orochimaru >old geezer