Macross Delta - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[karice67]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Better Official Setting Material.

Maybe it's just me, but this sounds like it could be referring to 'the administrative head of the emigrant fleets' rather than the sovereign governments of particular planets themselves. I don't suppose you have the text in Japanese so that I can see how it was phrased?

[Kazu-kun]

Welp, the local NUNS are assholes, but that was to be expected.

I'm more interested in Mikumo's secrets. There's a big chance she's actual Protoculture, which would be a first for the franchise (Mina Forte aside). I know it's too early to get the whole picture but I hope we'll get more clues soon.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Welp, the local NUNS are assholes, but that was to be expected.

They aren't local, that's the problem. Central Government Orders means it's straight from Earth.

[magnuskn]

Prematurely celebrating again, Thess?

[LoweGear]

The main thing about the NUNS nukes though is that it's actually a sound strategic decision, since its aim is to deny the enemy a valuable strategic resource, i.e. the Ragna Protoculture ruins. It's not being done out of malice towards the people of Ragna, and in fact if it succeeds it'll pretty much derail Windermere's entire scheme for the Globular Cluster, and thus Ragna would be safer for it. The only reason it sounds evil is because of the potential chance for collateral damage on a global scale, and because the NUNS representative is acting like an arrogant douche. However, even in this case they do mention using reaction warheads specifically designed to limit collateral damage, so it's not as if they're just blasting away at the Protoculture ruins on Ragnan territory with the biggest boom they have, consequences be damned.

On the other hand, Windermere straight up charges in with a Protoculture battleship and mind controls an entire planet, stripping people of their free will. There's nothing ambiguous about that morality wise, that's just black and white evil, and so far the Windermerians really have not shown anything that'll perfectly justify their actions asides from being shown as petty self-entitled royalty.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by karice67

Maybe it's just me, but this sounds like it could be referring to 'the administrative head of the emigrant fleets' rather than the sovereign governments of particular planets themselves. I don't suppose you have the text in Japanese so that I can see how it was phrased?

Because administrative heads can have different titles and positions. Macross 7 had a Mayor who has effectively presidential powers but the commander in chief was the fleet captain. Macross Frontier had a President for executive leader also called administrative head from a magazine article years ago during Frontier's run. Macross Galaxy had a executive board being a corporate fleet.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

The main thing about the NUNS nukes though is that it's actually a sound strategic decision, since its aim is to deny the enemy a valuable strategic resource, i.e. the Ragna Protoculture ruins.

The problem is that they're doing all this without getting authorization from the local government. They supposedly don't own the planet but they're acting like they do.

That suggests there's some truth to Windermere's claims that NUNS is attempting against the local sovereignty in this star system.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Prematurely celebrating again, Thess?

I'll only celebrate when Mirage gets her character development going. It's off with a good start at last, so I'm optimistic. However, I feel rather smug after the portrayal of that NUN emissary plus the good vibes between Ernest and Gramia.

I just don't think many people here realize the NUNS aren't a force of good and the protagonists. The protagonist group is Chaos. Chaos wants to stop wars and their goal is to stop the war between the NUNS and the Windermere. It's not "the Windermere/NUNS must win or lose." It's to stop their war.

Epsilon may or may not profit on the side by this, but there's undoubtedly something wrong with the policies of the NUN representatives and they aren't hiding this with the blatant disgust from our heroic band.

Spoiler for macross extra:

Also the one behind those Var and Vajra experiments in Macross Extra is revealed to be human! Just confirming that the Windermerians weren't behind that since the beginning and likely are some group latest attempt to put the Var under their control. I want to speculate that is Epsilon that is taking advantage of NUNS being absolutely incompetent as usual, but who knows.

[Wandering Soul]

With that new responsibility dumped on her, this is the perfect time for Mirage to get some development. Only time will tell how she handles her new position.

Nice little moment between Hayate and Freyja. Loving her songs could certainly lead to some feelings being developed.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

I just don't think many people here realize the NUNS aren't a force of good and the protagonists. The protagonist group is Chaos. Chaos wants to stop wars and their goal is to stop the war between the NUNS and the Windermere. It's not "the Windermere/NUNS must win or lose." It's to stop their war.

You stop the war by defeating the aggressor. The Aggressor is the Windermere. Thus, the Windermere must be defeated.

It doesn't matter how nasty NUN seem to be, they didn't start the fire. So what if humans studied VAR? The Windermere were the ones to USE it for actual warfare. The Windermere are need to be held responsible for their own actions, and war has consequences.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You stop the war by defeating the aggressor. The Aggressor is the Windermere. Thus, the Windermere must be defeated.

Out of curiosity, is this your first Macross? Zentraedi were never defeated. Neither were the Protodeviln or the Vajra. In fact, going by earthlings track record, they lose every single time until a singer magically persuades the other guys to stop killing and co-exist. Hence why Freyja and Walkure are extremely genre-savvy and those idiots from the NUNS seemly never actually read a history book.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It doesn't matter how nasty NUN seem to be, they didn't start the fire. So what if humans studied VAR? The Windermere were the ones to USE it for actual warfare. The Windermere are need to be held responsible for their own actions, and war has consequences.

Mmhmm. Look, there's an ominous group running experiments to be able to control those infected with var in the prequel tie in. Do you really think Windermere, a God's forsaken planet in the corner of the galaxy, just out of a crushing war could magically obtain a method to spread and control Var on their own when the whole galaxy is affected by that before that?

Aaaand the big amplification 'sanctuary' Heinz sings in is was provided by Epsilon.

[Mistyclear]

You know people have been criticizing Arad for not getting a new pilot for Delta squad... But to be honest I view it as logical
First and foremost Delta Squadron is a team you can't stick a random newbie in a group based on teamwork and expect it turn out well.... It just won't.
The Windermerians aren't exactly giving Delta Squadron time to train a new recruit to get used to their flight patterns and formations.
And in each Marcoss this has been a staple... In the original Marcoss when Hikaru was first assigned Max and Kakizaki (sp?) and they flew together on their first sortie it didn't go well with Kakizaki nearly getting shot down after charging in and ignoring his flight leader and Hikaru having to save him (he was then lectured by Misa for not properly fulfilling his mission- to which he responds with something like 'what do you expect me to do with these newbies'-- Max the genius aside (come on he's the best pilot in the series))
And then you have Sound force and their first sorties were nothing short of tragic.
The. there were a few episodes in Frontier featuring Alto training (in that Samson robot thing as well as general flight patterns with Michael and the team (S.M.S))
So ya I can't fault Arad for not yet having a new member for Delta.... Until they have time to properly train someone... I don't see anyone joining for a least a few episodes.

[Darthtabby]

While it is probably a bit difficult to just drop an outsider into a squadron and expect everything to run at peak efficiency, competent Air Forces do tend to have standardized fighter training and tactics. Plus you'd think Delta would be trained to operate with other Chaos units like Alpha and vice versa.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Because administrative heads can have different titles and positions. Macross 7 had a Mayor who has effectively presidential powers but the commander in chief was the fleet captain. Macross Frontier had a President for executive leader also called administrative head from a magazine article years ago during Frontier's run. Macross Galaxy had a executive board being a corporate fleet.

Yup, and that means the heads of the emigrant fleets, that is, the people that have emigrated from Earth. i.e. There's nothing in there about Ragna, its people, or their representatives having a say in using that weapon, which is what you were trying to argue with the 'evidence' you quoted from the Macross Chronicle was it not?

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

The Ragnan government had to approve of the use of Reaction Weapons as it is their turf. Lady M's political wrangling managed to postpone it.

I understand the condemnation of Windermere's actions, even if I personally am more willing than most to believe that they have legitimate issues stemming from relations with the NUN government since first contact 40 years ago. But seriously, trying to defend what NUN was doing in this episode seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

Out of curiosity, is this your first Macross? Zentraedi were never defeated. Neither were the Protodeviln or the Vajra.

Actually, the majority of Zentradi who attacked Earth were defeated and killed. A small faction of them decided to ally themselves with Earth and helped wiped out Bodolza. Tons of Vajra were killed until the whole deal was sorted out as a kind of "lost in translation" deal.

I hope you are not going to try to claim victory in this argument with the absurd notion that every Windermeran involved in this attack has to killed or taken out of action? I'm pretty sure that some of them will come around to the side of our heroes, but quite a lot of them will not.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Thess

Out of curiosity, is this your first Macross? Zentraedi were never defeated. Neither were the Protodeviln or the Vajra. In fact, going by earthlings track record, they lose every single time until a singer magically persuades the other guys to stop killing and co-exist. Hence why Freyja and Walkure are extremely genre-savvy and those idiots from the NUNS seemly never actually read a history book.

You missed my point. The Windermere are using singing as a conquest weapon and they were not going to stop by being sang back to.

Mmhmm. Look, there's an ominous group running experiments to be able to control those infected with var in the prequel tie in. Do you really think Windermere, a God's forsaken planet in the corner of the galaxy, just out of a crushing war could magically obtain a method to spread and control Var on their own when the whole galaxy is affected by that before that?

Aaaand the big amplification 'sanctuary' Heinz sings in is was provided by Epsilon.

Are you implying that the Windmere are just innocent pawns who are not making their own decision to start a planetary war?

Because regardless of how they get their superweapon, THEY used it. THEY are the ones who used the superweapon disregarding who gave them the means. The user has to take responsibility. And that responsibility isn't going to disappear by being sang to a few times.

Wars kill people, they declared war and started the killing. And they did so completely under their own agency, and there will be consequences. The Windermere seem to live by the Motto of "Live Fast and Die Young". And they will get their wish.

[magnuskn]

Alright, my impressions after seeing the episode with subs:

NUNS did not come off well here, but making their representative out to be Snidely Whiplash is a bit much. Yes, he and NUNS come off as arrogant bureaucrats, but I would say that described them as outright vllains does the term a disservice. From a practical standpoint, their stance makes sense, although the lack of care about what happens to the Ragnans and their planet is of course deplorable. Nonetheless, on the scale of villainy, I'd rank them pretty low so far, since they actually haven't done anything which has had bad results. Contrary to Windermere, which has committed numerous acts of terrorism and war crimes.

As for the romance, there is something happening on the Frejya/Hayate front and Mirage is finally doing something in her military, uncouth way. It's all very understated, but we are pretty used to that by now with Delta.

[Triple_R]

I intend to give my take on this episode as a whole later on, but there's a particular point of discussion I wanted to address right away.

Originally Posted by karice67

I understand the condemnation of Windermere's actions, even if I personally am more willing than most to believe that they have legitimate issues stemming from relations with the NUN government since first contact 40 years ago. But seriously, trying to defend what NUN was doing in this episode seems pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

Why? Why is it hypocritical?

Windermere is severely hurting four or more planets, annexing them in remarkably short order through using what's essentially zombification, on a massive scale. This very clearly and understandably raises Windermere to the status of a major threat that's more important than any one planet alone.

And it's not like Ragna is going to be given the Death Star treatment anyway. It sounds like NUNs are going to try to keep the damage to Ragna down to a minimum. Is such damage still sad and regrettable? Certainly. But who's ultimately responsible for this, if it comes to it? Is it NUNs or the enemy that is pushing NUNs backs up against the wall?

And there's certainly a good rationale to NUNs "destroy the Protoculture ruins" plan. It makes sense. It could undermine Windermere's entire military strategy in one fell swoop, leaving Windermere vulnerable to a truly overwhelming military response that they no longer will be able to just Var away. It is, of course, a very costly maneuver, but when the alternative is watching multiple planets get zombified...

Here's a question for you, Kacrice - What would you have NUNs do? What alternative do you see for them, at this point? Whoever this Lady M is, even she seems to realize that if more standard military measures can't soon stop Windermere, more drastic actions will simply be necessary.

I can tell you what I would have Windermere do - It's precisely what Roid is now advocating. So at least he's been made somewhat sympathetic, I'll grant that much. It's more than I can say for Keith "I'll eradicate every last Earthling if I have to!" Windermere...

All this focus on the Leon Expy while Keith's little genocidal comment there gets totally ignored...

[karice67]

^

Because NUN is unilaterally deciding what is best for the Ragnan government. If Ragna does indeed agree that this is the best means of protecting their planet, then sure. But were they even consulted?

If you argue that it's wrong for Windermere to decide what's best for the sector, then how is it not wrong for the NUN to unilaterally decide that they have to destroy the Protoculture ruins that Ragnans probably regard as cultural artefacts. Or are you all saying that it's fine because it's to prevent 'a worse outcome' for Ragna, as defined by the NUN?

To put it in another way: are you saying that the unilateral decision that NUN has made is fine because the loss of life and cultural ruins is better than being zombified? What if Ragnans feel differently about that?

[magnuskn]

What *is* Ragna's government, exactly?