F/SN UBW TV - Episode 17 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

If Gilgamesh manages to swallow his pride and admits to himself that UBW counters Gate of Babylon's weapon spam perfectly, which he only did when it was already too late against Shirou, he'll always win. He probably wouldn't underestimate a Servant like Archer, like he underestimated Shirou.

Name an enemy he's faced that he didn't underestimate. The closest you can come is Rider, and even then he underestimated him until the end of the King's Conversation.

Originally Posted by Lorhand

If we're talking about a serious Gilgamesh, he will curbstomp Archer.

How about we talk about a realistic setting for Gilgamesh instead?

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Using Broken Phantasms takes its time and costs large amounts of mana (and they are basically just bombs). You can't expect Archer to sword rain BPs at Berserker the whole time. And mad enhancement or not, Berserker isn't stupid, either.

Apparently he was able to do it enough to take off 5-6 of his lives. Likely without even using UBW. And while confined in a building, which is obviously the worst place for him to fight.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

"I am the bone of my sword. Caladbolg!" - Archer, episode 7.

Ah.

Also, what's the VN reason that Lancer uses the ranged version of GB on Archer instead of just stabbing him with the melee version? Anime made it seems like Archer will just keep out of range but it seems like Lancer can get in close pretty easily once he's serious.

[ImperialKnight]

Originally Posted by Lorhand

Using Broken Phantasms takes its time and costs large amounts of mana (and they are basically just bombs). You can't expect Archer to sword rain BPs at Berserker the whole time. And mad enhancement or not, Berserker isn't stupid, either.

He didn't had to.

In Fate Stay Route he was able to slay Berserker 7-8 times with the UBW.

It's weird. As far as I remember, back in the VN, Gate of Babylon was really 99% blades and similar ancient weapons (what it was stated to have was the original form of every noble phantasm, which were all hero's weapons), but it got retconned into being far more powerful with Fate/Zero, being upgraded to cointain all sorts of items.

So yeah, back then UBW would've been the perfect counter, but not really anymore seeing it can really bring any kind of item forth.

No offense but I'd find it weird if he's carrying ICBMs and Tomahawk Missiles....I mean he goes for treasures, unique weapons and I highly doubt the atomic bombs really count in that category....

I still stand by the fact that Archer/Shirou are the perfect or at the very least the natural counter to Gil in that the UBW levels the playing field between the two. As someone posted above that's pretty much the case stated.

[Rising Dragon]

I get the feeling that, VN-wise, Archer relied on means other than Broken Phantasms, and likely used some of Gilgamesh's tactics after he deployed Unlimited Blade Works. We know that Berserker can tank a BP!Caladbolg shot with ease, and that's already A-rank. If he used that outside of UBW, the whole manor would've gone up in smoke, and Shirou and the others would've noticed it, given that they were still within the confines of the bounded field by the time Archer fell in battle.

As it stands, though, our only real reference to how he could've accomplished it came from the DEEN adaptation.

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

No offense but I'd find it weird if he's carrying ICBMs and Tomahawk Missiles....I mean he goes for treasures, unique weapons and I highly doubt the atomic bombs really count in that category....

Well, actually, canonically he airplanes and submarines--his GoB effectively auto-updates on new inventions and such because as the King of Heroes, he's entitled to pretty much anything of human making. So yeah. Throwing out ICBMs and Tomahawk missiles is not out of the question when it comes to the Gate of Babylon.

[GDB]

Which didn't even show any of the actual deaths, so is still meaningless to the discussion.

[JustThisOne]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Ah.

Also, what's the VN reason that Lancer uses the ranged version of GB on Archer instead of just stabbing him with the melee version? Anime made it seems like Archer will just keep out of range but it seems like Lancer can get in close pretty easily once he's serious.

Archer just got Lancer so angry that Lancer used his most powerful attack against Archer. Of course this was perfectly in line with Archer's plan. Well except that Archer did not expect Gae Bolg to be so powerful.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by JustThisOne

Archer just got Lancer so angry that Lancer used his most powerful attack against Archer. Of course this was perfectly in line with Archer's plan. Well except that Archer did not expect Gae Bolg to be so powerful.

So he got baited

[GDB]

That's how Archer fights Lancer. Remember back in their initial fight, the entire premise of Archer's style was to bait attacks that he could barely deflect so as to prevent Lancer from dealing fatal damage.

[AvatarST]

Originally Posted by ImperialKnight

He didn't had to.

In Fate Stay Route he was able to slay Berserker 7-8 times with the UBW.



No offense but I'd find it weird if he's carrying ICBMs and Tomahawk Missiles....I mean he goes for treasures, unique weapons and I highly doubt the atomic bombs really count in that category....

I still stand by the fact that Archer/Shirou are the perfect or at the very least the natural counter to Gil in that the UBW levels the playing field between the two. As someone posted above that's pretty much the case stated.

To be honest I'm not really sure of the limits, but he does have the prototypes of most things that came later. The gates got a huge upgrade since Zero.

If we go by the original VN alone though, then yeah, UBW should be the perfect counter.

[Moekou]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

"I am the bone of my sword. Caladbolg!" - Archer, episode 7.

Irish mythology is less well-known than Greek mythology. Plenty of people are still treating Cu Chulainn namedrop as his identity reveal in this episode despite him yelling Gae Bolg and Saber making it clear he's "Ireland's Child of Light" (thus someone intended to be identified a that point).

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Moekou

Irish mythology is less well-known than Greek mythology. Plenty of people are still treating Cu Chulainn namedrop as his identity reveal in this episode despite him yelling Gae Bolg and Saber making it clear he's "Ireland's Child of Light" (thus someone intended to be identified a that point).

The only one in the current conflict who has any relation to Fergus mac Róich is Lancer, and he obviously doesn't have Caladbolg. However, Archer still has access to the blade of Fergus mac Róich. If he were Ajax or Ulysses, how would either of them have encountered Fergus mac Róich? How would either of them have any connection to wielding Caladbolg?

The inverse also falls flat. If he were Fergus mac Róich, how would he have encountered Ajax, the bearer of Rho Aias? Why would he have a connection to that shield?

Archer is a Heroic Spirit who has three Noble Phantasms, none of which are connected to one another: the Chinese Married Blades, Kanshou and Bakuya, the Irish Caladbolg, and the Grecian Rho Aias. Theories that he's from one set of mythologies become suspect when one considers that he has Noble Phantasms of other mythological origin.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by GDB

How about we talk about a realistic setting for Gilgamesh instead?

Um, context. That was my response to bakato, who claimed serious Gil would only have a real advantage because of Ea, which is wrong. That whole "Gil underestimating people" was also just in theory, not necessarily realistic, because bakato didn't specify at first whether that is a factor that can be ignored.

Originally Posted by GDB

Apparently he was able to do it enough to take off 5-6 of his lives. Likely without even using UBW. And while confined in a building, which is obviously the worst place for him to fight.

I don't think he only used Broken Phantasms. I'm not a fan of speculating how that fight went, but Archer could do more than BPs and it was noted that he used six different methods, though that admittedly doesn't say much.

[Reckoner]

Word of God should be taken with a grain of salt. If you have to go to side material to justify the canon, it's really flimsy. Gilgamesh could defeat Shirou with Ea if he pulls it out and uses its full potential every time. Gilgamesh doesn't do that against anyone really so in the end, he gets hard countered by Shirou and especially Archer and loses.

[Randomzx]

This episode is really paced and set up poorly.

-Lancer was supposed to gradually ramping up his offense until it overwhelm Archer's defense.
-Rin was actually racing around the church while defending against Caster's casual attack.
-Rin was supposed to make her final move when caster going for the kill, and she should have been pummeling Caster to prevent her from retaliating.
-The Shirou vs Kuzuki scene seemed to be shuffled and repeated
-Kuzuki's reinforcement buff disappearing should have been given more attention, and it was suppose to demonstrate how futile his actions (and how much slower he is without the buff) were when Archer didn't even bother dodging Kuzuki's strike on his head (Servant's are immune to non-magic attacks)
-The scene where Saber saves Shirou from Archer by tackling him wasn't made clear.

-Not to mention, there was too many openings in the action scenes inside the church, to the point where it plays out like a turn-based combat. They don't have to animate the action all the time, but they could have placed the scene much better (such as pacing some of the explanation during the time compression moment)

[Rising Dragon]

I love it how you're complaining about an incomplete episode. I also love how you're making direct comparisons to the VN without any spoilers, which you know the mods will ban you for.

I don't get why people are having issue with the tackle. It was pretty clear to me that Saber tackled him out of the way, given how they were off the bloody pedestal when the swords hit, when just a frame or two before they had been on the pedestal.

[Randomzx]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I love it how you're complaining about an incomplete episode. I also love how you're making direct comparisons to the VN without any spoilers, which you know the mods will ban you for.

Do you even know what section of the forums you are in? spoilers are allowed.

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, my bad. Spent too much time in the DxD forums when people are making a lot of unmarked spoilers and got a little too used to that disaster-in-the-making. Doesn't help that the mods made me paranoid about what can be said in the forums when it comes to comparisons.

Still, you're remarking a lot on things that may be filled when the BDs come out. Judging that much seems a little premature, all things considered. I mean hell, a previous episode has a whole seven minutes missing from it. God knows how much is missing from this one.

[Starlightz]

Originally Posted by Randomzx

This episode is really paced and set up poorly.
...
They don't have to animate the action all the time, but they could have placed the scene much better (such as pacing some of the explanation during the time compression moment)

The pacing was fast, they could definitely have afforded to give the fighting scenes more time. However, story-wise, nothing important was cut, so I don't think it's setup that poorly. Things like Rin racing around the Church defending against Caster's beamspam or pummeling her, or Saber pushing Shirou out of the sword way - for example - doesn't really add anything to the story other than cool fighting scenes. I think they want to put more focus into later (and arguably more important) confrontations.
(and yeah, there are still BD releases if they did cut something from TV version)

[zztop]

Design-wise, I've actually never been able to take Lancer's blue-tights costume seriously. He looks like some kind of silly superhero.
Now if his clothes were more like this, then...

Spoiler for Fate Prototype Lancer:

[Tormenk]

Rin's final killer punch on Caster was the same technique that Kirei used to flatten Kiritsugu. Now I'm very worried about domestic violence for Shirou's case.