[Manga] Naruto Chapter 576 Discussion

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

Except that has been part of the problem with the clan; something that desperately needed to change. Hell Itachi himself proved that whole theory to be misguided. Itachi was one of the most powerful uchiha ever, but he did not get that way with hatred... he did not have a pretty life, but all his training and growth was in pursuit of a purely selfless path. Itachi should have tried to make sure Sasuke went down a similar path

I'm not so sure itachi wasn't always shrouded in darkness. he was selfless for sure so it wasn't the type of narcissistic darkness that someone like madara pursued. itachi's was more masochistic and suicidal imo. i think he hated himself. he always seemed to be depressed. sasuke was a fun loving youth, but itachi was always worried about something. i really don't think he ever knew or understood the lightness that ninja like minato or naruto use to become powerful so he couldn't guide sasuke down that path. he still can't, but at least now he understands that that is what sasuke and the uchiha need

[ChronoReverse]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

I somewhat agree with what a certain fellow mentioned a page before, Sasuke didn't annoy me even a bit in this chapter.

What sorcery is this...

It's probably he was acting reasonably as a person in his shoes ought to rather than act all INSANE like he was earlier.

[Ulquiorra]

Sasuke tends to act like an actual person when he is vulnerable.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

agreed! contrived indeed! just like how naruto considers sasuke his first bond. what the hell happened to iruka then? personally, i could not understand naruto's attachment to sasuke, nor do i think that sasuke considered naruto a close enough friend who could influence him if we are to think about it in a realistic way. if there's anyone who could change sasuke's thinking it would be itachi himself, no one else.

In order to follow the story you have accept Naruto and Sasuke's bond/eternal bromance. Even if most people do not find it all that believable. It is the most important relationship in the manga.

Three are at least a half dozen other characters I feel Naruto has a much stronger bond with. And Sasuke never seemed to care much for Naruto. Iruka, Hinata, and Hiruzen were all people who acknowledged Naruto early on. But it doesn't matter. Kishimoto wants us to believe that Sasuke is the most important person in the main character's life. And Naruto is the only one who can save him; or die trying.

[23 gundam fan]

good chapter. it was good that itachi realized he made some mistakes as far as how he treated sasuke. i wonder where does the story go from here with these two. it was something to see madara give a touchlashing to tsunada, and her silence as he went on and on spoke volumes. i mean madara was right tsunada skills pales in comparison to her grandfathers. it kinda sad that she is so far below him in skills. as far as her will of fire speech. i am sure kish is gonna finally give her a big time fight, but guess what SHE IS NOT GONNA TO DEFEAT MADARA, for one simple reason. if a group of kagas fighting together could not defeat him up to this point she is not going to. and as far as her speech, that does not mean she will win. as i recall the third gave a will of fire speech and guess what, he died.

[Discerptor]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

as i recall the third gave a will of fire speech and guess what, he died.

The curse he inflicted also "killed" Orochimaru in that he had to switch bodies soon afterwards. It also saved Konoha from having to deal with Orochimaru and, as a result of forcing the body transfer, saved Sasuke from becoming Orochimaru's new vessel, arguably eventually resulting in Orochimaru's "real" death due to Sasuke's and Itachi's actions.

[Methuselah]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

It did indeed feel awkward. Considering how Sasuke has always looked up to Itachi, and that he learned the truth about him, it feels more natural to me that if anyone had the ability to reach Sasuke it would be Itachi. After leaving the village and defeating Naruto, I don't think Sasuke even mentions Naruto's name, nor does any of his subsequent goals or endeavors have anything to do with him whatsoever.

So quite frankly, I don't find it convincing that Sasuke and Naruto's friendship is deep enough that Naruto would be the only one who can set Sasuke on the right path, putting aside all his anguish. And, even if Naruto has that ability, why wouldn't Itachi also be able to do so? It just feels horribly contrived, just to make Naruto the ultimate hero.



Sasuke was actually doing well around the time he and Naruto became closer imho. He did indeed start out "broken and lonely" in the classes, but team-7 did have have some positive influence on him, at least socially. He also had Kakashi as a master(an awesome coach/role model), and I'm sure between the two of them they would've come up with a way to get Sasuke a nice MS technique. Sasuke and Naruto were rivals, but it was a sportsman-like rivalry (e.g. Naruto delcaring that he wanted to fight Sasuke in the tournament).

If he kept going down that route, I'd imagine him probably having the mindset of bringing Itachi to justice, rather than "slaughtering" him. Whats interesting is that it was Itachi himself who took set Sasuke on the "wrong path", as his little visit to the village became the catalyst for Sasuke not being satisfied with his growth, and it certainly didn't help that Itachi dismissed him, saying Naruto was more important (which caused a very unsportsmanlike-like resentment towards Naruto), not to mention the mind torture, brutal beating, more taunting, etc.

Mhmmm I really agree with you there.

From what I can tell there was one point where Sasuke almost reconsidered his hatred. It was the time after Naruto and Sasuke clashed and Kakashi tied him up on a tree and preached to him. (How Kakashi told Sasuke that all that he hold dear are dead.)

Sasuke ALMOST reconsidered his purpose... Until the bloody Sound Ninjas with Curse Marks ambushed him, beat him, taunts him, and convince him with power.

Honestly... Sasuke has the worst luck. Reread his childhood and you guys would know what I mean. Look at his dad! Lil' Sasuke would practice Fireball Technique until his cheeks burn up. The dad acknowledge him but only as a replacement to Itachi who he deemed as possibly dangerous. Sasuke was never loved. Unlike Naruto's parents.

That goes to my other complaint. Naruto is no longer the same as Sasuke! Naruto met both his parents - mother and father!!! Both parent acknowledge Naruto as their child and told him they really love him. That love is what helped Naruto NOT side with vengence and kill Pain!!!

What does Sasuke have? His twisted-loving brother who won't even look him in the eye even when he is dead via Edo Tensei?

I dunno... I don't see Sasuke coming out of this story without being a psychotic.... The boy experienced all this from 6 till now... which he is only 17? He does not have the experience nor peers to help him handle these trauma. Man.....

Again Sasuke's role in this story is intriquing. I feel like Kishi really put his mind into such a character - I would rival his complexity with that of the children of Evangelion (only more complex than Eva)...

I look forward to Sasuke's ending.

[Alchemist007]

Originally Posted by Shay

Hahah, same. I don't even think Itachi knows anymore...

The thing is, he's always known more than he's let on. I'm guessing it has more to the whole Tobi-Madara thing.

[Ero-Senn1n]

I expect that what will happen with Sasuke is that at least he finally realizes that the Tobi guy is not even Madara. After that it will be hard for Tobi to manipulate him any further. Tobi's plan of making a big Sasuke vs Naruto fight seems to be already successful, so there's no need to manipulate Sasuke any more into doing it, he is doing it on his own. But even as he does it, any revelation about Tobi might later help Naruto turing Sasuke to his side.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I expect that what will happen with Sasuke is that at least he finally realizes that the Tobi guy is not even Madara. After that it will be hard for Tobi to manipulate him any further. Tobi's plan of making a big Sasuke vs Naruto fight seems to be already successful, so there's no need to manipulate Sasuke any more into doing it, he is doing it on his own. But even as he does it, any revelation about Tobi might later help Naruto turing Sasuke to his side.

Sasuke has already stated he plans to turn on Tobi. Before Tobi can turn on him. He is well aware he is being used. Learning that Tobi is not Madara shouldn't effect Sasuke's way of thinking. Some of what Tobi said about Konoha made sense to Sasuke. He has made the decision to believe some of it. While intelligent, Sasuke is no Shikamaru or Itachi. His emotions cloud his reasoning.

[King Lycan]

Didn't think Sasuke was gonna talk to Itachi so fast I wonder if Sasuke will aid Itachi after their little talk ?

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

In order to follow the story you have accept Naruto and Sasuke's bond/eternal bromance. Even if most people do not find it all that believable. It is the most important relationship in the manga.

Three are at least a half dozen other characters I feel Naruto has a much stronger bond with. And Sasuke never seemed to care much for Naruto. Iruka, Hinata, and Hiruzen were all people who acknowledged Naruto early on. But it doesn't matter. Kishimoto wants us to believe that Sasuke is the most important person in the main character's life. And Naruto is the only one who can save him; or die trying.

i would have understood it if there was enough premise for it but there wasn't. it's one of the biggest inconsistencies in the series. naruto's relationship with sasuke is as false as itachi's selfless love for sasuke. i guess if i were to make something out of these relationships is that they are forms of unrequited love.

[Lendial]

Itachi remains the true hero of the story, willing to make difficult decisions while naruto is simply a foolish naive child with genetic gifts beyond imagination.

I really hope the manga ends with naruto having to kill sasuke instead of what will likely happen: naruto saves sasuke and dies in the process.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Methuselah

That goes to my other complaint. Naruto is no longer the same as Sasuke! Naruto met both his parents - mother and father!!! Both parent acknowledge Naruto as their child and told him they really love him. That love is what helped Naruto NOT side with vengence and kill Pain!!!

What does Sasuke have? His twisted-loving brother who won't even look him in the eye even when he is dead via Edo Tensei?

sasuke has team 7, particularly naruto.

also, when his parents were living they loved him. his father was a stern, worrisome guy but he loved sasuke and as sasuke grew he would have been proud of him as he started to be. it's always tough for a younger brother to live up to their older brother if the older one was a success. sasuke's mom was pretty normal and loving. he got much more time with them than naruto did.

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sasuke has team 7, particularly naruto.
also, when his parents were living they loved him. his father was a stern, worrisome guy but he loved sasuke and as sasuke grew he would have been proud of him as he started to be. it's always tough for a younger brother to live up to their older brother if the older one was a success.

Sasuke doesn’t care about Team 7 so the only people he may have possibly are Team Taka.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sasuke's mom was pretty normal and loving. [B]he got much more time with them than naruto did.

Sasuke: “I'm suffering now because I had those ties, how on earth could you possibly understand, what it feels like to lose all that?!”

As Sasuke said Naruto doesn’t know the pain of knowing his family / clan and then losing them as well as it happening at a young age.

Sasuke and Naruto are similar but at the same time like opposites for example Naruto has met and confided with his parents while Sasuke gets very tough twisted love from Itachi.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

No it wasn't seeing as doing that would have led to a massive war that would have could have resulted in either A) Sasuke being killed in the war, B) the entire clan being killed in the war anyway, or C) the clan being victorious but sasuke probably scarred for life after having to see war first hand at the ripe young age of 6... and i'm not so sure how the uchiha would fair if they had to first beat kohona and then beat back all the other villages; making A and B more likely...

I'm talking about Itachi not killing the clan...not him simply letting them go ahead with the rebellion. It's has been discussed in other threads before that maybe there were solutions other than the massacre.

Personally I believe Itachi felt he didn't have a choice and saw it as either the-Uchiha-go-or-Konoha-goes. However once he made that decision and decided to spare Sasuke, he knew that Sasuke's life would be basically shattered. In other words, I'm saying Itachi sent Sasuke down this road the moment he decided to kill the clan. The murder is the source of his hatred--not Itachi's words, beatings or Tsukuyomi. Not Madara's or Oro's speeches. These things have only been used to direct Sasuke's existing hatred at specific people.

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Sasuke was actually doing well around the time he and Naruto became closer imho. He did indeed start out "broken and lonely" in the classes, but team-7 did have have some positive influence on him, at least socially. He also had Kakashi as a master(an awesome coach/role model), and I'm sure between the two of them they would've come up with a way to get Sasuke a nice MS technique.

I think assuming Sasuke was going to become an upstanding citizen had Itachi just left him alone is a glass half full perspective. Team 7 was having a positive influence on Sasuke's life but at the back of Sasuke's mind, Itachi was always the goal. As he grew stronger, Sasuke would've become more driven towards revenge. It would've taken longer, but I think either way, revenge could've eclipsed his devotion to Konoha.

One thing you and Slayerx don't really address is: Assuming your judgement about Sasuke is right and he didn't leave the village due to Itachi's mind rape--what would happen if he found out that Konoha responsible for the order to kill his clan? Likely he would've found out either from Tobi or Danzou (b/c Danzou would've eventually targeted Sasuke for his Sharingan if Itachi died). Would all the love and teamwork with Team7 have matter much then? I'd say it be more like a cruel joke. The people you live and care for are part of the organization that killed your family. It could've made his vengeance even worse. All the healing would be undone and it'd be like losing his family again.

I dunno, I think in some ways Sasuke's situation was pretty much inevitable. There was hope for him to become the person Itachi wanted to bring justice to the Uchiha without his mind-rape, yes, but I think the truth about Konoha's involvement would've sent him over the edge. Frankly, I don't know how Itachi hoped that would work itself out. I guess he figured Sasuke wouldn't have the chance to learn from Tobi if he gave Sasuke his MS and the auto-Amaterasu killed him. But we saw how well that worked.

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

i mean madara was right tsunada skills pales in comparison to her grandfathers. it kinda sad that she is so far below him in skills.

Hashirama has been realy been hyped up lately. He went from being Konoha's founder to pretty much the strongest shinobi in history besides the Sage of the six paths. Now we find out that even his medical skills leave everyone in the dust. Tsunade was painted as the penultimate medical nin before this chapter

[HasuMasu]

I thought Kabuto surpassed Tsunade's medical skills way before?

Like, in Part 1.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Detective-san

I thought Kabuto surpassed Tsunade's medical skills way before?

Like, in Part 1.

tsunade is a dinosaur. even sakura could have surpassed her if kishi only allowed it to happen. that's why i felt tsunade should never have been brought out of that coma. the time of the sannin is over. oro and jiraiya are long gone. tsunade should have died after pain attacked konoha. she would have died a hero too, having saved so many people's lives by using her chakra reserves to heal them. her death would have given sakura a chance to rise up to the challenge to become the best medical nin in konoha. and if she had died then kakashi's own resurrection would have made more sense. he had to live so konoha would have an interim hokage. besides, he deserves a more heroic death than just losing all his chakra while trying to save chouji.

Hashirama has been realy been hyped up lately. He went from being Konoha's founder to pretty much the strongest shinobi in history besides the Sage of the six paths. Now we find out that even his medical skills leave everyone in the dust.

kishi is hyping up hashirama so he could hype up madara. if he could make hashirama god-like then it would make madara incredibly fearsome and formidable, being the only one to have fought hashirama on an equal level. kishi tends to do that, especially when he's trying to make a certain character look really badass. i find it annoying and unnecessary to be honest. you can make a character look badass without all the hype. make him do something, don't just talk about it.

[Casshern]

Tsunade deserves to have one good fight before she retires. Oro got it with Sarutobi, Jiraiya got it with Pain, Tsunade has never had a proper fight. I hope Kishi doesn't pull his usual sexist bullshit and ignore her.

On another note, Kishi really really sucks at writing female characters. I mean, I knew it all along but this chapter just made me I dare anyone to find the most timid and humble woman they know, and tell her she is weak because she is a woman. See how that works out for you. I dunno, maybe it's a cultural thing. Maybe women in Japan accept this kind of crap. It's the only explanation I can think of for not having heard on the news about a mob of angry women breaking into a certain mangaka's house and flaying him alive. /rant

How the hell do the physical differences between male and female justify sexism when everything is powered by friggin' chakra anyway! /rant2

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by TimeMask

Sasuke doesn’t care about Team 7 so the only people he may have possibly are Team Taka.

the point I was rebutting was that Sasuke has nobody. he has team 7, he just doesn't want them. the same could be said about loving parents who a child doesn't want. they are still there for them.

Sasuke: “I'm suffering now because I had those ties, how on earth could you possibly understand, what it feels like to lose all that?!”

As Sasuke said Naruto doesn’t know the pain of knowing his family / clan and then losing them as well as it happening at a young age.

of course it's not exactly similar, but the old 'naruto never met his parents' argument doesn't work anymore. he did meet both his parents now and instead of turned into a vengeful monster against the people responsible for their deaths, he embraced light and love.

Sasuke and Naruto are similar but at the same time like opposites for example Naruto has met and confided with his parents while Sasuke gets very tough twisted love from Itachi.

them being different and choosing different paths is the wwole point of their rivalry/relationship. just because itachi si so morbid and twisted doesn't mean sasuke has to go down the evil path. he could have chosen to confide in naruto and get his support from someone who would guide him into the light. naruto had a very troubled youth as well and he managed to turn things around and conquer hatred. its not like naruto always had these happy moments surrounding him

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Discerptor

The curse he inflicted also "killed" Orochimaru in that he had to switch bodies soon afterwards. It also saved Konoha from having to deal with Orochimaru and, as a result of forcing the body transfer, saved Sasuke from becoming Orochimaru's new vessel, arguably eventually resulting in Orochimaru's "real" death due to Sasuke's and Itachi's actions.

i understand where you are coming from, but the events after the thirds death could be argued to be total luck. the third could not have known how everything was going to work out. oroch could have got his arms restored by tsunda and coutinued to weak havoc on konoha. how it turned out is just how kish wanted it too. but it could have turned out far different. its like when people said sasuke didnt defeat deidara. hello if you are dead and the other person is still alive and walking and can affect the real world. its simple to me, the person alive won the fight. when you have to count on others, you have to have a lot of things fall into place. and you do not know if they will. case in point look at itachi and sasuke, itachi bet it all on sasuke and up till now, look at whats happen. its a great point of what happens when you die and have to leave it up to others.