Love Live! Sunshine - Episode 12 Discussion / Poll

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by blakstealth

That girl is the remotely closest thing we'll get to a cameo.

Just realized somethings after looking at screenshots of the scene where Alisa and Yukiho introduces the freshmen to School Idols, during the movie.



Look to the girl directly at the right hand of Alisa. The hair color and face and eye color suspiciously resembles that of the girl who showed up this episode - if the lighting is brighter in Sunshine than in the movies.



And now, look at the scene where Alisa and Yukiho are talking to freshmen interested in the club. The hair color of the girl in the second row to the left, seems to match Riko Sakuramachi's hair color. As far as I can tell, we never saw her face.

Crack theory: Riko Sakuramachi lied to Chika when she professed ignorance about School Idols. Chika knows this, and chooses not to dig deeper, sensing that what happened in Otonokizaka to Riko is a sensitive topic she should not pry into. Riko Sakuramaachi actually appears in the Movie - she's the girl to the left on the second row.

Yes I know, it could just as well be someone else altogether. But as I said, it's a crack theory, and speculation.

But it stands to reason: if the Otonokizaka Idol Research Club still exist, there's good reason to believe we have seen some of their oldest members before - in the Movie. Were the OIRC to show up in Love Live Sunshine, the animators already have their character designs for a good number of them from the movies.

[R.LocK]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Thanks, it's nice to have confirmation. Where was this scene(s)? I'd like to see for myself too.
Since the Otonokizaka student is definitely a third year, it's even more reasonable for Riko not to know her.

Season 2, episode 8. They also wore red ribbons during the second year of Otonokizaka in the same ep.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by novalysis

And now, look at the scene where Alisa and Yukiho are talking to freshmen interested in the club. The hair color of the girl in the second row to the left, seems to match Riko Sakuramachi's hair color. As far as I can tell, we never saw her face.

Actually we do, because the very next cut, we see the faces of the girls in the first two rows. They all have short hair and none of them look like Riko.
Also, I already pointed out, Riko entered the school the year after this scene.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

It may be blunt, but I wouldn't consider it insecure. It's not that she can't look at µ's, but she cannot look at this poster the way she used to, as a security blanket.

She could look at it as a simple fan. You can be a fan of an older group, and still do your own thing in your area of interest. I mean, did Nico ever need to take down her A-RISE poster? I don't recall Nico ever doing that.

The main way I made a connection with Chika was through a shared fandom with her. For me, that connection now feels severed, partly because I wouldn't do what Chika did here, as a fan.

I know a lot of people here probably don't want to read this, so I'll try not to belabor the point. If it worked for you, so be it. For me, it feels a bit cold and maybe even a little artificial. Simply as a fan, I find it hard to relate to. I kinda wish Sunshine could have found a subtler approach, or like I wrote before, had never made such a big deal of μ's in the first place. Because of that big deal, this was the main way I connected to the female lead - as fans of the same group.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by outlaw97

But hey, now we can look forward to Episode 1 of Love Live Sunshine next week!

I'll second Tempester here. Can we get the karma system back so I can +1 this?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If this was supposed to be heartwarming to me, or fanservice to me, it most certainly was not. I would have preferred nothing at all from the OG compared to what we did get. At least nothing after the 1st episode, as I can understand that being the way it is just to bring the same fans back again

Honestly I feel like this episode was meant to be taken not as fanservice but the complete opposite of it. This episode is the culmination of one of the major drivers behind the entire first season of Aqours: the team went into this show afraid of the fans holding the series up to an impossible standard set by the original show.

Every one who watched the original show could see the similarities, the homages and the apparent boot licking that went on almost from day one and I believe that all that was deliberate and meant to build up to episode 12.

Now I think that this is actually the shows' greatest failing. They didn't have enough confidence to fully embrace the new characters and felt the need to drive home the point over almost the entire season which is clearly ridiculous.

Now I think the studio made a severe miscalculation though. I think they assumed that the fandom would only be looking for more u's and would immediately disregard anything that didn't heavily reference the original material so they came up with this plan to deconstruct that whole prospective aversion of the audience. In the end, and if these forums are anything to go by, folks actually got (rightfully) pissed off at the fact that the show seemed reluctant to let go of the original and be its own thing. It's really ironic if my theory proves correct.

Like you said to me Triple_R, it is very cynical and something one would not expect out of Love Live. I kind of agree with you there but, despite all that, the characters themselves are great and aren't clear cut replacements for their predecessors and their prospective trials are actually different from the ones of the original Love Live girls even if it didn't quite looked that way at first. I think they can still salvage this and hopefully the first true episode of Sunshine goes out in a bang.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Actually we do, because the very next scene, we see the faces of the girls in the first two rows. They all have short hair and none of them look like Riko.
Also, I already pointed out, Riko entered the school the year after this scene.

Ah thanks for clarifying that.

So, does the time-line then look like this?

Year 1: ARISE wins Love Live, Muse forms and also wins Love Live
Year 2: Alisa and Yukiho joins
Year 3: The last members graduate
Year 4: Alisa and Yukiho graduates. Mari, Kanan and Dia founds the first Aqours
Year 5: Riko joins Otonokizaka
Year 6: Sunshine begins.

Which means this is the SIXTH year of Love Live, not the Fifth? If so, there was room for something to go wrong after Alisa and Yukiho graduate, and for OIRC to fall into obscurity within the school to the point Riko didn't even knew what School Idols was.

Because if the other time-line is correct, then Riko DID enter the school while Alisa and Yukiho was around. Which then makes her denials of not knowing anything about School idols.... very dubious based on what we know of Otonokizaka.

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

But Riko explicitly stated she knew nothing about school idols back in ep2. If there's no way she could have missed knowing about school idol events while in Otonokizaka, then she was lying about it and still hasn't come clean to Chika after all this time and experiences. That doesn't look good on her, especially if she had bad experiences with idol groups back then.
If she's honest, then either there were no events or the then current group was so incompetent they weren't even able to make themselves known to their own school.

And so we have three options that are unappealing.

1. We must buy that the OIRC collapsed without Yukiho and Alisa's leadership (which makes the closing scenes of the movie tragic if you think about it); to the point that they couldn't even make themselves known to their own school. Really? Sure, if this was set ten years after Muse. But so soon after Alisa and Yukiho's graduation? Something must have gone horribly wrong if that had happened within the OIRC.

2. Riko is lying, and possibly has big baggage left over about School Idols we aren't seeing, and this speaks very badly about her character given how intimate Chika and Riko have been. Keep in mind Riko, for some reason choose not to tell Chika she won her piano competition. And the times where she had an opportunity to come clean to Chika were very, very bad times to reveal that she has baggage if she is carrying baggage from Otonokizaka - one was before the first Event Aqours was going to participate, another was just a few weeks at most before the Love Live Qualifiers. But if she is lying, this is a rich, rich source of second season drama - sadly, I think for too many people watching, it's a drama too reliant on Otonokizaka and legacy of Muse.

3. Riko was so obsessed with the classical world and so anti-social she had absolutely no clue what was actually going on outside the classical music community in her school. This, I cannot buy based on how she conducts herself around Aqours.

I wonder whether the writers will get around to addressing this puzzle, or whether it will be simply forgotten because Otonokizaka will play no more part in the story from here on out. But if we buy that Love Live is a meticulously plotted series, then it's incredibly likely that this puzzle will be come utterly relevant to the Second Season, if the monsters above Saint Snow become relevant and the show takes a Sports Anime turn. I find it hard to believe this is the last we've seen of the fate of OIRC, and it's fate, is likely greatly relevant to the competition that Aqours is going to face - as well as the question of what Aqours is going to do after the Third years graduate.

To me, this is not a question about mimicking Muse or copying the OG - this is a consequence of the authors setting Sunshine chronologically in the same continuity and time-line as the existence of Muse and relatively close at that, and making Muse a legend.

And speaking of clean breaks, I can believe OIRC members do not take their trophies home on graduation. It's not an individual victory, after all. Instead, the trophies are stored in the school archives. The only time club members get to see the old trophies is when they put away their own trophies to join the old ones, and can show that they have become equals to their predecessors
.

That sounds like a very plausible theory. But, why then does the Otonokizaka student seem to insinuate that even the records and trophies of Muse are no longer in the School itself? Or does she mean that it is no longer with the Idol Research Club, even though Muse has certainly left a mark on the school history itself? After all, we are only shown the Idol Research Club Room; and if she is indeed part of the Idol Research Club, it will make sense she is referring to the club itself, not the school.

But it certainly is a very romantic picture, of Alisa and Yukiho putting their trophy that they earned with their own unique group of friends side by side the trophy their sisters had also earned with their own group of friends.

Also on OIRC, for two years after µ's, it could have fielded two idol groups at the same time. I wonder how did that work out?

Well, one possibility is that the OIRC innovated the Sub-unit approach in School Idols to take advantage of their ability to field multiple idol groups. If they could manage sub-unit organization well, that could have worked out well. But it probably would have necessitated some more complex club organization that what we saw for Muse, where organization was a very informal and ad hoc affair. We know that if it happened, it probably did work out because of the final scenes of the movie involving the two sisters.

Technically, if Saint Snow's numbers are more standard than 9 girl groups, then there are enough students in Aqours for multiple groups too at the same time. The same held through for Muse, but Sub-units were never explored in the OG.

Again, if we get answers about what happened to the OIRC after Muse, we'd probably be getting answers into delicious things such as whether School Idol Clubs with large numbers of members have discovered the Sub-unit strategy. Or even whether the Sub-unit strategy is a natural evolutionary outcome of large Idol Clubs. And if Sub-units do exist, then it's very likely that Aqours in the anime might choose to pursue the Sub-unit strategy, as part of their clean break from Muse (who in the anime world were never organized into sub-units). I dare say that this is one of the possible routes that Sub-units can be introduced into the Second Season, should the anime choose to do it.

Damn it Mari. Why did you had to fall asleep during Dia's lecture? We could have gotten some answers!

[Akito Kinomoto]

Even discounting the μ's referencing and story beats (which we're not going to do), Sunshine!! had the general problem of wanting to be quite lighthearted while also wanting to be more serious without a proper transition. As strong as the show got from episode 8 onwards, it's impossible to shake the feeling the writers forgot to build that tension until it was too late. I'll take 5/6 Sunshine!!'s last episodes over the Kotori drama, but the latter doesn't change the feel of the show for nearly half its run. Since a lot of us expected it would get to this point for Aqours anyway, we wanted to see it happen over the course of the series

This episode is emblematic of the entire 1st season, and as they say they're going to do their own thing, cue Chika taking the white feather Maybe Love Live! Galaxy will use that feather as the only physical link between series

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

Even discounting the μ's referencing and story beats (which we're not going to do), Sunshine!! had the general problem of wanting to be quite lighthearted while also wanting to be more serious without a proper transition. As strong as the show got from episode 8 onwards, it's impossible to shake the feeling the writers forgot to build that tension until it was too late. I'll take 5/6 Sunshine!!'s last episodes over the Kotori drama, but the latter doesn't change the feel of the show for nearly half its run. Since a lot of us expected it would get to this point for Aqours anyway, we wanted to see it happen over the course of the series

This episode is emblematic of the entire 1st season, and as they say they're going to do their own thing, cue Chika taking the white feather Maybe Love Live! Galaxy will use that feather as the only physical link between series

I think part of the problem, is that there is a huge cost to novelty that takes place in the early season once the authors commit themselves to the same premise as the OG, while intending to deconstruct it and show how it will run differently in a different town with a different group of girls.

The basic premise I'm referring to, is the idea of a girl being inspired to form her own Idol Group. Here's the problem with this premise: there are inevitably going to be many "stations of canon" that logically have to be traveled through before you can start creating truly unique divergences.

I disagree with you that the show got stronger from Episode 8 onwards. For me, it was from Episode 7 onwards, because Episode 7 really started the break from the basic out-line of the OG with the event invitational EVEN before all 9 girls were gathered.

Till then, the first six episodes strictly paralleled the OG. And I think it's very hard to avoid parallels (Yohane's episode was the best of the six IMO, because it had no clear analogy to the OG). Why? Because Idol group that is going to be founded from scratch logically needs to jump through certain hoops/ Stations of canon.

1. The founder is inspired and seeks Approval. This was the basis of episode 1.
2. Recruit a Composer. (Episode 2)
3. Host a debut performance (Episode 3)
4. Expand Recruitment (Episodes 4 -5)
5. Learn to produce good PVs (Episode 6)

Inevitably, no matter what the writers do, at some people are going to see parallels with the original, the moment the show commits itself to the premise of an inspired girl founds a School Idol Group.

Sure, could the authors be bolder in switching the order? Well, the Recruitment and Performance arcs could be reversed.... and that's about it. Could the writers choose not to re-run the School is closing plot again (which will not be resolved this season)? Yes.

Could the authors change the details of how each of these "Stations of Canon" were carried out? Actually they did. Dramatically. Riko's recruitment was completely different from how Maki was recruited. The debut performance was actually a success, not a failure. Yohane's recruitment has no real parallels to Muse, and runs a very different message from any of Muse individual character arcs.

So yes, the authors can do more, and I think the critics are right in saying this. But I would like to point out that other than changing the premise of Sunshine, there are limitations to how much more the authors can plausibly do until those basic stations of canon are cleared. In my view, Yohane and Riko's episodes was the furthest Sunshine went in differentiating themselves from the OG. But even if every episode of Sunshine from 1-6 was unique like the Yohane episode was, there are unavoidable parallels that were going to happen once Sunshine commits to the same premise as the OG. There is also no way narratively Chika could have realized imitating Muse was futile until all those hoops were leapt through - the earliest that realization could come was after all 9 members of Aqours was gathered, and something demonstrated the futility of copying Muse. So if this was the deconstruction the authors were going for, I'm not sure how much faster they could run that deconstruction.

And I don't think the writers dared to commit to a different premise, for fear of alienating the old fanbase. All the strong episodes came in once they passed those pre-requisite developments that a "start my own" plot requires for the story to make sense, and after that, they were free to write truly unique developments with no clear parallels in the OG.

[Triple_R]

Really... Just try to make a good show. Just try to have likeable characters. Just try to please the fans. Just try to have a good compelling well-wrote narrative that builds up nicely and steadily with good points of payoff. And let the characters and story develop as it will from there. Just Good Writing 101, Good Drama 101, Good Character Development 101.

Forget about competing with the OG. Forget entirely about the OG aside from mostly background character motivations and maybe some nice actual fanservice moments (rare ones, if they happen). Don't even think about words like "deconstruct" that honestly shouldn't even be in the Love Live vocabulary. Deconstruction is Gen Urobuchi's game, and that does not play well in Love Live, in my opinion.

When Sunshine simply tried to please its fans with likeable characters and compelling situations, it shined, regardless of similar story beats or anything else. Where Sunshine faltered is when it became overly meta and/or overbearing, in my opinion.

Thankfully, there are some excellent Sunshine episodes of it just trying to please its fans (Episodes 4, 5, 10, and 11 being the best examples of this, imo).


As for this episode? I think Akuma Kousaka made good points.

[R.LocK]

Okay. I didn't intend to get involved in this debate, but there's one thing I can't let slide.

Sunshine is anything, but cynical. It is overbearing at times; it is absolutely smothering with references and callbacks to the original series, yes. The very weaknesses of Sunshine as a series are tightly related to the decision to stick to the original's themes as close as humanly possible.

The writers did play with fans' expectations, and, sometimes, just overplayed some stuff. However. It's never ever got cynical. A little tease here, a smack on the head there, a packed punch from time to time, but no cynicism. I'm actually lost where could you even find any traces of cynicism in the series, geez.

[Triple_R]

@R.Lock - If you think "overbearing" captures it better than "cynical", fine. Cynical is maybe putting it too harshly. I just want to stress the meta side of things. So sometimes "overbearing + too meta" works for me.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

When Sunshine simply tried to please its fans with likeable characters and compelling situations, it shined, regardless of similar story beats or anything else. Where Sunshine faltered is when it became overly meta and/or cynical, in my opinion.

Thankfully, there are some excellent Sunshine episodes of it just trying to please its fans (Episodes 4, 5, 10, and 11 being the best examples of this, imo).

Well, I personally think Episode 5 was the strongest of the first six episodes, simply because of how well developed that single episode was and how well the air-time was used to flesh out Yohane and give her a very good reason for entering Aqours without any references to Muse. Ideally, a Sunshine that consciously minimized the callbacks to Muse in the first half should, in my opinion have adopted the strategy of Episode 5.

I'm curious you actually liked Episode 4. Yes, the Muse references and analogies could make sense, but I would have thought that the deliberate attempt to parallel Hanamaru and Ruby with Rin and Hanayo, from the standpoint of the perspective that Sunshine should not be leaning on it's predecessor, dragged the episode down. There was absolutely no need to run those parallels, Hanamaru and Ruby could stand on their own as characters as expressed in Episode 4 alone. So, I do find it quite interesting that you list Episode 4 as one of the episodes Sunshine did really well.

Does this mean that you think Episode 7, 8 and 9 are problematic, because they were abit more meta and cynical? Just checking - because I actually think that Aqours really found their own unique voice during those three episodes, and that made them the most crucial episodes that separated and defined the border between a weaker first half from a stronger second half. Those were actually my favorite set of episodes.

I actually thought that Love Live Sunshine really came into it's own as a show between Episode 7-9 , because this is the point of time the show really dares to throw the characters into unprecedented and uncharted situations and challenges the OG never really faced. In terms of references, Episode 7 aside, Muse references were slight and in my view made sense in context to the drama at hand. The OG never really handled adversity very well - in my view, Sunshine was very effective at using adversity as a way to build up it's characters and give a compelling conflict. Which was something the OG struggled with at times.

And as character drama and group-wide conflict, it was miles, miles ahead of that mess called the Kotori arc, in terms of how interesting , relatively measured and compelling it was. I don't really think Sunshine did badly when it came to drama - it made narrative sense, the characters behaved quite plausibly and consistently under adversity; and it really added much needed dimensionality to it's characters, especially to Chika - who really shed her status as Honoka clone off very firmly in those three episodes.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I'm curious you actually liked Episode 4.

Episode 4 was about Hanamaru and Ruby. It was about introducing them more, and making them likeable compelling characters. And I felt Episode 4 succeeded very well there. Yes, some OG references were overdone, but it only detracted a little for me. As you wrote, they made sense. And though overdone, they could actually be passed off as fanservice.

And honestly, I'd like it if we had more serious character development like we had in Episode 4. Personally, I find Sunshine a little too heavy on the comedic antics side of things. I liked the relative calm and seriousness of Episode 4, and how it presented Hanamaru and Ruby in that light.

Does this mean that you think Episode 7, 8 and 9 are problematic, because they were abit more meta and cynical?

7 is pretty good, but yes, I found it a bit more meta.

8 is a very good episode, but I'd feel a little strange calling it "fan-pleasing" because well, it's a gut-punch episode. I think it succeeded when it comes to that. And it's good to have an episode like Episode 8 every now and then.

9 I simply found rushed. But to be fair, yeah, it was aiming to be fan-pleasing without heavy reliance on meta-side, so you can add 9 to my list if you'd like.

And as character drama, it was miles, miles ahead of that mess called the Kotori arc, in terms of how interesting and compelling it was.

While the Kotori arc had its issues, I thought it started well and ended well. I also think it had two of Kotori's very best moments.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by novalysis

I'm curious you actually liked Episode 4. Yes, the Muse references and analogies could make sense, but I would have thought that the deliberate attempt to parallel Hanamaru and Ruby with Rin and Hanayo, from the standpoint of the perspective that Sunshine should not be leaning on it's predecessor, dragged the episode down. So, I do find it quite interesting that you list Episode 4 as one of the episodes Sunshine did really well

Episode 4 used PanaRin and Eli as points of inspiration for RubyMaru and Dia. It helps that in subsequent episodes, they weren't spamming their names near constantly. Hanamaru became a comedy character, but the Kurosawa sisters rose significantly when their drama was just about them

Originally Posted by novalysis

And as character drama, it was miles, miles ahead of that mess called the Kotori arc, in terms of how interesting and compelling it was. I don't really think Sunshine did badly when it came to drama - it made narrative sense, the characters behaved quite plausibly and consistently under adversity; and it really added much needed dimensionality to it's characters, especially to Chika.

Sunshine!! episodes 8, 10, and 11 are ahead of the Kotori drama, Sunshine!! episode 9 is a mess that switched the fun loving Mari into emo whining mode specifically for that drama--when episode 8 changed Chika near flawlessly--while significantly hurting Kanan who didn't have much in the series to start with while also needing to be either two episodes, be more developed beforehand, or not focus on Aqours tailing the 3rd years and just make it about the 3rd years and this episode had no reason to blow this hard when it's advertised in the OP and when they've been building it since day 1 not to mention overdramatic AF when episode 11 realized there's only so heavy you can go for a character who's been faded out since the start but in this case you had an infrequent character, a rarely appearing character, and a frequent character except that frequent character was just a non-presence for that episode

[Triple_R]

Just to add to my previous two posts... Much of what I love about Episodes 10 and 11 is that it's just really good character/character relationship development. I love where Sunshine went with You/Chika/Riko.

That seemed well-written to me, with some beautiful and compelling moments. And it struck me as Sunshine just trying to please its fans and have Good Drama 101 and Good Character Development 101.

Episode 10's ending was probably Sunshine's very peak for me, so far. And I didn't really see much meta here.


One additional thing I'll give Episode 12 - It handled Riko and You well. You does feel a little more well-integrated here after the Episode 11 drama.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The main way I made a connection with Chika was through a shared fandom with her. For me, that connection now feels severed, partly because I wouldn't do what Chika did here, as a fan.

But you see, the connection is severed, because Chika is no longer a mere audience to the idol world like you still are. She is actively participating in that world herself. Admittedly, it's been that way since ep1, but only now does she appreciate the full import of making that change.

I've read that a fan playing in the game is different from a fan that only watches. I am afraid I can't say for sure because I've never participated in something I liked like that.

But I think you have. I know you've blogged extensively at least a few years ago, I still have your Madoka Magica articles. Perhaps you can shed some light on this. How do you feel about your favourite blogs before and after you began blogging? Do you still enjoy them the same way? Are you more critical of them? Have your feelings about reader comments changed?

That's what's happening to Chika now. She can't like school idols the way she used to anymore, especially the one she admired the most. And that's actually become an obstacle in her way, so she needs to remove it, by removing that poster.

Nico made her change over a year before the series, at least. Even when she had stopped performing prior to µ's, she wasn't enjoying idol performances as merely a member of the audience. Witness the difference in attitude between the girls who watched the first live in S1E3 and her in S1E5. It wasn't just because she's a bitch.

Perhaps it is a weakness that Chika has to take the poster down. But at least she showed strength in facing that weakness and going through with dealing with it.

I'm not arguing with you. I just hope I can shed some light on the possible difference in perspective between you and the characters.

Originally Posted by novalysis

So, does the time-line then look like this?

Year 1: ARISE wins Love Live, Muse forms and also wins Love Live
Year 2: Alisa and Yukiho joins
Year 3: The last members graduate
Year 4: Alisa and Yukiho graduates. Mari, Kanan and Dia founds the first Aqours
Year 5: Riko joins Otonokizaka
Year 6: Sunshine begins.

Which means this is the SIXTH year of Love Live, not the Fifth?

You are correct, but the year numbers should be -1 because, when you count "how many years have passed," you start from zero, not one. It's the same for time. How many hours are there between 12 and 3 o'clock? Answer: three, because it's 12 to 1, one hour; 1 to 2, two hours; 2 to 3, three hours. Not: 12, 1, 2, 3: four hours.

We must buy that the OIRC collapsed without Yukiho and Alisa's leadership (which makes the closing scenes of the movie tragic if you think about it); to the point that they couldn't even make themselves known to their own school. Really?

Actually, I can believe it. Remember I said my HS Computer Club won twice in a row? They didn't win the third year, or ever again while I was there. I didn't think much of it for a long time. Then, I went through a few anime of students trying to save their school by winning tournaments, and I realized something, none of these kids really set up the their school to continue winning after they graduated. So yeah, I can buy that Yukiho and Alisa couldn't teach their juniors how to succeed without them, didn't even realise they could and needed to. Sad, but that could be more likely than a winning streak that lasts longer than three years.

Well, one possibility is that the OIRC innovated the Sub-unit approach in School Idols to take advantage of their ability to field multiple idol groups.

Recall that Alisa and Yukiho formed their own group because they (and µ's) understood that they couldn't change µ's dynamic like that. Which means they won't enter LL as a combined team. That would undo the whole point of forming a separate team in the first place.
Which means one team will be eliminated at the preliminaries because they're competing in the same area due to being from the same school.
Things like that can always suck. I have mixed feelings about never knowing for sure how it developed.

[Dextro]

I just remembered something: We actually saw this one coming all the way from episode 8. Some choice quotes (including myself):

Originally Posted by novalysis

I think you are one of the first persons to make the connection between the seeming mediocrity and sedateness of Episode's 6 performance (nice touches with the lanterns compensating), and Aqours total failure in the Tokyo exposure event. I have a suspicion that it's not just the weakness of episode 6's dance that is deliberately meant to set up 8. I think alot of the seemingly annoying parts of the show, such as the constant Muse referencing by Chika and company, is foreshadowing of how such Muse worship is a recipe for failure.

It's almost a meta-commentary by Saint Snow to Aqours here, a self-critique of the Muse referencing that Sunshine indulged in. Of course, if Muse referencing still continues at the same rate at Episode 9 and beyond.... I would like to think that Sunshine is now past the point where parallels to Muse and the original series can be drawn, and the show has entered Terra Incognita.

Originally Posted by Dextro

That's actually an idea I've been musing* over after watching the episode. Maybe, just maybe, all the muse references have been, as you pointed out, a way to setup a particular plot point of Aquors having to overcome their fixation with the original girls and become their own thing. I won't claim the show made particular fantastic work passing that message but we have to admit it was effective even if it was as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face.

But who am I kidding, Love Live has never been a franchise know for subtlety and it's only been getting worse the further it goes so its no surprise how almost overbearing the Muse referencing has been.

Now if the show really tones down the muse references from here on out then we can put down this hypothesis as a fully supported theory. (...)

And what do you know? It actually happened just like I thought it would at the time. Aside from some fangirling by Dia (which makes sense given how her character was portrayed) we didn't get much u's referencing until this episode came along almost proving my theory. The big difference is that it wasn't trying to prove that the girls needed to overcome u's, it was trying to prove that the show itself needed overcame its own predecessors.

Now sadly I called it "as subtle as a sledgehammer to the face" which clearly wasn't enough. My bad

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

I've read that a fan playing in the game is different from a fan that only watches. I am afraid I can't say for sure because I've never participated in something I liked like that.

I have to make an amendment to this part, I'm ashamed to say. I actually did go from a fan that was just audience to participating, and I was active for ten years. Yet, I forgot just because I was out of it from a few months ago.

Like many of you, I'm sure, I read scanlated manga. Then, I got involved in scanlating what was my favourite manga title. I did that for eight years, until that title ended. Then, I did the next manga by the same author, for almost two years, until that title ended as well. I only stopped because the current title from the author has an official simultaneous English release.

You know what my experience has been? Thoughts like, this is good; this is bad; can I do better than this? I can do better than this; they carry real weight when you're doing it too.

My role in the scanlation operation increased bit by bit over the years because we kept changing and losing people. Eventually, I had to do everything besides translating from Japanese.

In the process, my greatest obstacle is the fact that I have virtually no drawing skill whatsoever. When we had other editors, I could count on someone else to draw in the space where text had been directly over the art better than I ever could.

I have my weaknesses, I will never be able to redraw like many of my editors could, and there are some scanning artefacts I just could never get rid of. But I found my own way to deliver a quality release that I still feel proud of.

You want to know how I compensated for my shortcomings? I made my releases the cleanest, the most grammatically correct, error-free, best styled text ever. I used my Chinese fluency and the Chinese edition of the manga to complement my Japanese translator's work. I eventually managed limited drawing work and could fill some gaps and adjusted my styling to cover others. I would like to think, if people wanted to, they would print my releases because the quality and resolution were the best overall compared to anyone else's.

You want to know how I feel about other scanlation works and even official translations? There are some I feel envious at because they can do some things I never will, especially when it comes to redrawing. There are other I detest because they can't seem to mange what I consider basic skill levels at cleaning the page and proper language skills. There are others that I approve of, because they're clean, error-free and have attractive styling, like my own standards.

Even when reading that manga title that has an official simultaneous English release, I wonder if I should offer my services to the publisher because their text styling is so bland and they made errors in the text! For a paid product!

Sounds like Nico in early S1, doesn't it?

And yet, I understand how much effort they have to put in, because I've done it too. Even when I feel... displeased at the amount of some of them.

Apologies for the rant. But please bear with me a bit longer. I promise, there's a point.

When I was merely a reader, I was just thankful to get to manga in English. I gladly suffered their shortcomings for that privilege. Quite a far cry from after, isn't it?

Chika too is undergoing this transition. There are things other idols can do that Aquors may never be able to match. And they must be able to do things no other group, even Muse, can do if they want to win.

And for that, Chika can no longer admire Muse as a member of the audience. Which was what she had been doing from her bed towards the poster, every night, until now.

For her, it was abrupt and clear. For me, it was so gradual, I even forgot after it was over, until now.

[Julio C]

Honoka and Tsubasa love child:

[Triple_R]

@Jimmy C I thought you weren't going to argue with me?

You know far more about scanlations than I, so I'm certainly not going to argue against you there.

So instead, here's a few Simple Questions: What would your reaction had been if Chika had decided to keep her μ's poster up? What if that was the last scene before cutting to the ED? Would that have been a major issue for you? Would it have seriously hurt this episode for you?

As a pro sports fan who has read various player autobiographies, I would have found it entirely believable.


I don't like the vibe I get from you that Sunshine's Director/writers had to make this creative choice. No, they didn't. It was a choice. If you're happy with it, good for you. But nobody is obligated to like it or agree with it or think an alternative to it was impossible. Because it's not impossible. This is fiction, sky's the limit. And in a fictional universe where one girl can shout down the rain, and another girl can heal debilitating stage-fright in a single diving session, I don't think it's too hard to have a girl balance being a fan of Group A while still walking her own path. In fact, that third thing sounds very mundane to me compared to the first two.

You know, part of me likes Love Live for the same reason I like Superman. I like seeing miracles happen. I like seeing magic happen. I like seeing people that don't believe in the word "impossible".

And that'll probably be my last word on this thread.