Macross Delta - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[ippus]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Honestly, it's wrong to expect people to, I think.

That's just the way the world works. Most viewers cannot be bothered to hunt down ancillary works, no matter how invested they are in a product. If you launch a multimedia venture with multiple stuff, and expect them all to succeed... Don't kid yourself, you will fail, somewhere. Miserably or not, but you probably won't see a lot of successes in all of your products - just look at all the stuff that came out in the launches of anything from the sequels to the Matrix to Star Wars: Shadows of The Empire; hits and misses, everywhere (some great, some good, some very, veeeeeeery bad). And, worse still, if you go expecting them all to tell a single, cohesive story? Then you're screwing with the fans, plain and simple. That's not very nice.

I, for one, don't really agree with this - even worse when there's the pesky problem of the language barrier and the difficulties of the importation fees (when the products are even available in a language I can understand). It's... complicated.

That's just the way it is. IMHO, of course. You're all free to disagree, obviously.

TL;DR: I'll keep to what's in the anime. If it's not in it, but it's somewhere, I'll treat it as supplemental information, when it's available from a trusted source - but it probably won't affect my enjoyment of the show all that much. Does that make much sense?

I think HirouKeimou is actually on the same wtf supplementary reading boat as us LOL

But as a general statement about supplementary material yes yes and yes weep

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Matts

It's probably in the manga that 95% of the viewers, Japanese included, will not bother to check.

Yeah, people check out side materials (in this case: LN & manga) based on how captivating the source material (TV series) is. It makes little sense for me to have to piece together character and plot from side materials all the while trying to convince myself that the writers are telling a good story in the show.

Sorry, not how it works.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by ippus

I think HirouKeimou is actually on the same wtf supplementary reading boat as us LOL

Of course I am; I live in the USA and require translators to read any manga/novels I come across. I can read simplified Japanese (you know, basic romanji); however, I'll require translators for the harder words... and the language barrier is one hell of a reason to not pursue novels especially. And it doesn't help no one will bother to translate them (even the Frontier novels).

So everyone who says "read this, it's better" only pisses me off.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Alhazred

All they really need to do to minimally set up an 'everybody hug' ending is to dramatically reveal the 'real antagonist' and then run out the clock so they don't leave themselves or the audience time to linger on the atrocities of war. It is an extreme cop-out of an ending strategy, but i wouldn't put it past these writers.

The real cop-out is if all the Knights die. Seriously, at this point death is too good for them. They need to survive to see what harm they have done to the people they were suppose to serve. If Delta want a cop-out they would simply kill all the people responsible, so no one has any case to answer.

[magnuskn]

I really think Berger is the best playah on this show. At the very least he does not have the problem of being a hypocrite like the Windbags. He sells arms to everyone and he is okay with that.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The real cop-out is if all the Knights die. Seriously, at this point death is too good for them. They need to survive to see what harm they have done to the people they were suppose to serve. If Delta want a cop-out they would simply kill all the people responsible, so no one has any case to answer.

Don't you know? Death is the easy way out .

Berger is the head of the branch (in the cluster) of Epsilon right?

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Again, a "bad guy" is an evil character who's actions define his role in the series; Berger's only weapon is his information, ergo words. He is doing nothing to any character outside of telling them half-truths. What they do with it is their own fault.

Sorry, but Bergers only weapon is not words, but weapons as well.

Since I pointed at "Lords of War" here are some interesting movie citations, which I mean that Berger is the real bad guy:

"There are over 550 million firearms in worldwide circulation. That's one firearm for every twelve people on the planet. The only question is: How do we arm the other 11?"

"They say evil prevails when good humans fail to act. What they ought to say is, evil prevails."

Don't forget, Berger did not only trade information. His foundation armed windermere with better aircrafts, maintains and upgrades the protoculture system on the vallen. On the opposite side, his foundation also supplies with ammo and so on.

He is a bad guy because the only one he cares is himself and he goes over sacrifices if neccessary for his personal goal. If Delta would be an AD&D Game, he would be described as Neutral evil same as Jarlaxle Baenre of Bregan Dearthe.

[magnuskn]

Hm, I'd rather put him as Lawful Evil. Jarlaxle is willing to betray people every now and then if it is useful for him. I haven't seen Berger actually betray anyone. He is just playing both sides and offering weapons to anyone who wants to buy.

--

A bit OT, but remembering that Ernest (or maybe Arad... doesn't matter, both are sympathetic to Walkure) has the command ability to just casually sever the connection to Berger as an arms supplier, it really seems strange that the Walkure girls wouldn't go to him to see Mikumo, but instead start that clandestine operation. The lack of clarity who has authority over whom in Chaos really is noticeable.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Don't you know? Death is the easy way out .

It is when a story tries to avoid answering the hard questions. It might not be the easy way out for the Knights but it would be the easy way out for the Anime Studio.


I want to know how the show handles the aftermath of this war. Just getting all the Knights killed would skip all the difficult political bits.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It is when a story tries to avoid answering the hard questions. It might not be the easy way out for the Knights but it would be the easy way out for the Anime Studio.


I want to know how the show handles the aftermath of this war. Just getting all the Knights killed would skip all the difficult political bits.

I doubt they'd kill them all off, and as for how they'll be delt with we can only wait to know.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Sorry, but Bergers only weapon is not words, but weapons as well.

(...)

Don't forget, Berger did not only trade information. His foundation armed windermere with better aircrafts, maintains and upgrades the protoculture system on the vallen. On the opposite side, his foundation also supplies with ammo and so on.

He is a bad guy because the only one he cares is himself and he goes over sacrifices if neccessary for his personal goal. If Delta would be an AD&D Game, he would be described as Neutral evil same as Jarlaxle Baenre of Bregan Dearthe.

Again, he is not the person responsible for the war in the first place; he is only profiting from it. After all, in that case, all co-conspirators like himself should be held accountable; but like others who play both sides, he is biased to either side winning as long as his endgame is in motion.

And like I said, Berger is doing no real "action" in this war. He did not begin this war, Gramia did; and once Gramia died, Roid decided to play King and is continuing this war. Berger is only playing his role on both sides as a messenger and side villain. He holds no power over if Windermere will live or die, if Roid will unlock the Protoculture device, or if Walkure will win with their songs. All he can do besides provide weapons and/or information for both sides is be an onlooker. Scheming doesn't equal "actions" here.

Now if he'd do something like threaten Roid or Keith or kidnap Freyja or Mikumo in order to use the Protoculture device, it'd be a little different. However, he is not doing any of this and it only solidifies him as a side villain (like Leon was in Frontier, only difference is Leon had power from the beginning because of his position on Frontier, and he abused it for his own personal gain from the beginning).

[ippus]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

A bit OT, but remembering that Ernest (or maybe Arad... doesn't matter, both are sympathetic to Walkure) has the command ability to just casually sever the connection to Berger as an arms supplier, it really seems strange that the Walkure girls wouldn't go to him to see Mikumo, but instead start that clandestine operation. The lack of clarity who has authority over whom in Chaos really is noticeable.

I'm not entirely sure yet but from what it seemed in the raws,

Spoiler for Raws:

Mikumo didn't seem all that thrilled by the fact the Walkures risked their professions to see her.

Also......................................
I actually felt myself tear up when (edit)Messer saluted and he had that music player armband on his wrist ;_______________________;

I seriously wish this anime had actually been about the formation of the current Walkures...their trials...their work to becoming the group they are now...sigh....


...Bloody sponsors

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by ippus

Spoiler for Raws:

Mikumo didn't seem all that thrilled by the fact the Walkures risked their professions to see her.

True.

Spoiler for Mikumo:

She chastises each of them and asks if each one realized what it would mean for them.

Albeit, even if she is mad, she is touched because they did it for her (someone did something for her even though she is inhuman and/or a clone).

Originally Posted by ippus

I seriously wish this anime had actually been about the formation of the current Walkures...their trials...their work to becoming the group they are now...sigh....

Maybe an OVA will come out for it if enough people show interest in it.

[Mistyclear]

Ippus not Arad but Messer with the bracelet right?

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Ippus not Arad but Messer with the bracelet right?

OMFG YES;;; I wrote it between gaming so I was hardly paying attention LMFAOajsdjasgdjasghd

[charles883]

After watching sub I have theory that Mikumo is the original Wind Singer, not clone

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by charles883

After watching sub I have theory that Mikumo is the original Wind Singer, not clone

You probably mean original Star Singer.

But yeah, I don't think she's a clone either. That wouldn't explain her memories.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You probably mean original Star Singer.

But yeah, I don't think she's a clone either. That wouldn't explain her memories.

It wouldn't be the first piece of science fiction that has a person's DNA being encoded with memories, if they wanted to go that way.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

It wouldn't be the first piece of science fiction that has a person's DNA being encoded with memories, if they wanted to go that way.

Sure it's not impossible. I just think they're subtly foreshadowing that she's the real deal.

[Ura-dora]

Mikumo's storyline is looking to be more and more tragic. The worst part of it is that she's going to accept it, because her one and only passion is singing.

In regards to Roid, it looks like he's going to become a tragic villain. This episode is a clear indication that Roid is aware that his methods are wrong, however in his eyes this is the only path that can be taken. Which would explain why others can't sense his runes, because he wants to walk this path alone.