Forum reorganization (Was: New "CR" links)

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by Slice of Life

I just wanted to throw in that ANN of all things, doesn't seem to consider CR anime as "licensed" either: list of licensed anime. They don't even list Phantom about which they only say "Streaming: Funimation", contrary to FMA which is "Licensed by: Funimation" according to their database. I don't know what their exact policy is, maybe somebody can direct me to their house rules, In any case, an "US license" is a vague and nondescriptive legal concept even inside the USA and irrelevant outside. And of course, something that seems to be forgotten again and again, any anime is a copyrighted work.

One of the advantages of murky confusing rules for the "gatekeepers of content" is that it chills the environment in general (be it fair use, grey market, whatever). However, the unintended effect is that it leaves people like me having much less respect for the rules at all (and I'm pretty conservative comparatively in this arena).

[GHDpro]

One solution that might reduce the amount of threads that need to be moved around is to group them by year or season. Most discussions are after all about series that are airing (and being subbed) in the most recent season(s).

This way, once the first airing date of a new series is known, it'll have to be moved from the "Unaired" forum once and then never again. The tricky bit would be what to do with series that span more than two seasons (more than 26 episodes).

My suggestion would look something like this:

Fall 2009 season
Forum for discussing anime that first aired in the Fall 2009 season.
Sub-forums: Darker than Black, To Aru Index/Railgun

Summer 2009 season
Forum for discussing anime that first aired in the Summer 2009 season.
Sub-forums: Bakemonogatari, Umineko, Valkeria Chronicles

Ongoing series
Series that are still ongoing and started before the two season mentioned above.
Sub-forums: Bleach, Fullmetal Alchemist, Naruto, One Piece

Older series
Forums for discussing popular anime that finished a while ago.
Sub-forums: Spring 2009 season, Winter 2009 season, Fall 2008 season, Summer 2008 season, Ah! My Goddess, Clannad, Claymore, etc, etc

Upcoming
Forum for discussing anime that haven't aired yet or haven't been subbed yet.
Sub-forums: Winter 2010 season, Spring 2010 season, Summer 2010 season

The only problem with this design is that past the summer 2009 season it gets a little hard to remember when exactly an anime series aired. So maybe instead of retiring the season forums under "Older series", all threads could also be merged into that forum instead (so all threads from before summer 2009 are in one forum, unless they're still ongoing).

In this forum structure, we could use thread prefixes to identify licensed series (or CR, simulcast, etc).

[felix]

I would like to see threads of ongoing series separated from threads of shows that are over. I'm not shopping while browsing the forum (not its purpose) so really don't care for the distinction here, any way to get something like a special search/query?

[AnymX]

I personally think that animesuki forums is good as it is now, but I understand that navigation is a bit complicated so I guess that some changes must be made to reduce confusion. After thinking a bit of which way would be easyest to navigate for users or maybe even mods, I com up of this (of course the order in how it is placed could be different):

Ongoing series
Forum for discussing anime that is currently airing.
Sub-forums: Fansubbed, Simulcasted (or Licensed)

Fansubbed
Forum for discussing fansubbed anime that's finished airing and currently is unlicensed (in Region 1).

Licensed
Forum for discussing anime that has been licensed (in Region 1).

Unaired
Forum for discussing anime that haven't aired yet or haven't been fansubbed yet.

Current Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that are currently airing.
Sub-forums: Bakemonogatari, Bleach Darker Than Black, Fullmetal Alchemist, Haruhi Suzumiya, etc, etc

Older Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that finished a while ago.
Sub-forums: etc, etc...

So basically yes, nothing changed much, but I just can't see It anyway different.
So when animes firs episode is fansubbed or simulcasted It is moved from Unaired to Ongoing series sub-forums.
When anime is finished airing in Japan the policy for moving threads would be the same as Current Series sub-forums policy for moving series to the Older Series sub-forums.

@GHDpro Personally I think your suggestion would be kinda confusing to navigate.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

What about doing away with using licensing of any sort as a form of distinction, and instead use categories of production...

I.e.

unaired, fansubbed, prosubbed, dubbed

unaired = shows that have not aired or have aired but have no english subs in existence
fansubbed = shows that have english subs made by fans
prosubbed = shows that have official english subs by companies hired by the creators or legal rights holders like licensors
dubbed = shows that have official english dubs

Then everything is very cut and dry, with a bit less confusion.
Things that might not be licensed but with official subs (like Haruhi S2, for example) are also clearly classified in this setup. It doesn't depend on availability in any certain country or legal status, simply the existence of clear cut production work.

I actually like this classification since it covers all bases, without needing to distinguish between types of licenses (streaming, dvd), including those subbed by the publishers themselves. My only contention would be the dubbed category. I think we should avoid it since the prosubbed category already covers it (and there are releases like Gurren Lagaan which had both a dubless and a sub+dub version)

I think this still keeps the intent of the forums for having a place to discuss fansubs specifically, including potential fansubs i.e. unaired category, without loosing sight of the official releases when the come.

This is really the only place like this online

[relentlessflame]

For my part, what I ultimately want is to have one, and only one, single guiding principle that determines where to find thing. It could be:

• Title
• Time
• Licensing Status
• ???

What I don't like is how we currently have two competing systems: a "sub-forum" system based on "current"/"older"/"retired", and a separate "thread" system based on "unaired"/"fansubbed"/"licensed". This gives the forum a cobbled-together feel that you get used to, but doesn't seem "by design".

If you accept this design requirement (which I'm not saying is a requirement, but I consider it certainly a "nice to have"), there are three proposals on the table so far that would seem to meet that requirement:

1. A system based on Production Type (as proposed by Quarkboy):
   
   e.g. Unaired/Unsubbed, Fansubbed, Prosubbed, Dubbed (?)
   
   
   
2. A system based on Airing Status (as mentioned by xris, based on prior proposals by others):
   
   e.g. Unaired/Unsubbed, Current Series, Older Series
   
   
   
3. A system based on the first-airing season (as proposed by GHDpro):
   
   e.g. This Season, Last Season, Ongoing Series, Older Series, Upcoming Series
   
   (For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to go with the modification suggested at the end of the post of simply pooling all older series together rather than maintaining separate season sub-forums for old shows.)

Personally speaking, I could live with any of these systems, and I think they all have their share of advantages and disadvantages (obviously these are just the ones I thought of).

System 1:

• (+) The type of permitted discussion is obvious based on the forum section
• (+) Clearly reflects the site's purpose as a place to discuss fansubs
• (- or +/-) Requires new users to familiarize themselves with the licensing status of the show they want to discuss (may not be immediately obvious to some)
• (- or +/-) Inconsistent with the newly-adopted Listing Policy, which doesn't differentiate "pro-subbed" unless home media is coming
• (-) Sub-Forums for anime with multiple seasons would remain in the "highest logical tier" even if subsequent series are not licensed in the same way (i.e. Shana, Hayate, etc.)

System 2:

• (+) Easy to find the most active threads and topics
• (+) Streamlined structure reduces clutter
• (+/-) Use of labels to clarify licensing status may make things look a bit messy
• (-) Require a system to determine when to move series threads
• (-) Require active mod participation on a regular basis to perform move operations

System 3:

• (+) Still pretty easy to find active topics (especially for new season starts)
• (+) All threads move with the season, which is clearer and easier to implement than System 2
• (+/-) Use of labels to clarify licensing status may make things look a bit messy
• (-) People need to remember/determine when a show started aired (at least within the two most recent seasons)
• (-) Still need some mod maintenance to triage between "Ongoing" and "Older" at the end of every season (for the prior season -- i.e. we'd be triaging Spring 2009 shows right now).

I'm certainly not claiming that's an exhaustive list, but maybe it's a start.

Personally, I'm sort of leaning towards System 3 assuming we can work out some of the kinks, but this is mostly because it's consistent with the way I think about anime. I think it has the benefits of bringing the newest stuff to the forefront, without the drawbacks of the manual maintenance required by System 2. System 1 is fine, but I personally think licensing is becoming more-and-more murky and confusing, so while I think it should be clearly-noted, I don't think it's the easiest way to find a show in a hierarchy, in general. So I guess I'm sort of voting accessibility over philosophy, but that's just my personal preference.

Anyway, I know that's a lot of words, and I'm not trying to say that these are the only three options on the table, but maybe that provides some food for thought.

[Magin]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to ask, but since this thread seems to be the only one remotely talking about the new CR thing, I have one little question:

the ones that have the CR tag in front, will Animesuki be hosting torrents for? I see that they all got moved to the Fansub section, and even the MFI tags were under the licensed section. I haven't seen anything pop up on the torrent page, so currently I'm assuming that even though they're now under fansub, they still won't be listed, but can I get an official clarification?

[Icehawk]

Basically I would do something like what AnymX listed. Put all titles which are *currently limited* to a Crunchyroll/Hulu/Whatever official streaming site into an "Online Releases" or somesuch named forum and I would slightly change the description for the "Licensed" forum to make sure it is only for series that are licensed yet NOT being legally streamed and only have a DVD/Blu Ray release.

Fansubbed
Forum for discussing fansubbed anime that's finished airing and currently is unlicensed (in Region 1).

Online Releases
Forum for discussing anime that are currently licensed to release *only* via legal online streaming.

Licensed
Forum for discussing anime that has been licensed (in Region 1) for a current or future release on DVD or Blu Ray.

Unaired
Forum for discussing anime that haven't aired yet or haven't been fansubbed yet.

Current Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that are currently airing.
Sub-forums: Bakemonogatari, Bleach Darker Than Black, Fullmetal Alchemist, Haruhi Suzumiya, etc, etc

Older Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that finished a while ago.
Sub-forums: etc, etc...

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Icehawk

Basically I would do something like what AnymX listed. Put all titles which are *currently limited* to a Crunchyroll/Hulu/Whatever official streaming site into an "Online Releases" or somesuch named forum and I would slightly change the description for the "Licensed" forum to make sure it is only for series that are licensed yet NOT being legally streamed and only have a DVD/Blu Ray release.

Fansubbed
Forum for discussing fansubbed anime that's finished airing and currently is unlicensed (in Region 1).

Online Releases
Forum for discussing anime that are currently licensed to release *only* via legal online streaming.

Licensed
Forum for discussing anime that has been licensed (in Region 1) for a current or future release on DVD or Blu Ray.

Unaired
Forum for discussing anime that haven't aired yet or haven't been fansubbed yet.

Current Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that are currently airing.
Sub-forums: Bakemonogatari, Bleach Darker Than Black, Fullmetal Alchemist, Haruhi Suzumiya, etc, etc

Older Series
Forums for discussing popular anime that finished a while ago.
Sub-forums: etc, etc...

I would not prefer this for two reasons:
- each thread can be moved up to 3 times: unaired -> fansubbed -> online releases -> licensed
- the "licensed" distinction here is a misnomer IMO as some discussed

@relentlessflame
this might be a radical change to the way things are now, but as an alternative to moving threads around into dedicated forums based on categories that not everyone may agree on, why not just do away with the release classification forums and keep all subbed releases in one forum?

Then you'd use a tagging system to classify it's status. And you would not have to worry about moving things around or how to correctly classify each type of release since you wouldn't have a dedicated forum for those types of releases. If a series takes lots of words to describe it's release, you can just use lots of tags or words

It'll make it everything easier to keep track of and less overhead for mods.

Since the only thread move you'll do is to go from Unaired -> Subbed. Then you can tag a release initially as "fansubbed". Then maybe "prosubbed - CR" or "prosubbed - CR, Hulu, Viz", then maybe later on add "prosubbed - DVD/BD" tags.

And likewise for airing status and such IF you don't want an unaired subforum -- those can also be easily identified with tags. e.g. "Airing" or "unaired". Unaired will of course imply unsubbed in this case. Since sub status will be covered by "Airing" + "fansubbed" / "prosubbed - XXX" tags

[Slice of Life]

My suggestion would be:

• current anime
• older anime
• unsubbed anime

I.e. relentlessflame's version 2. I'd keep the organization of the big series (with subforum) as it is. I'd rather avoid mixing threads and subforums on one level. Alternatively, the solo threads could get their own subforum, i.e.

• current anime
  • General
  • Naruto
  • Bleach
  • ...
• older anime
  • General
  • ...
• unsubbed anime
  ...

License status can be handled with flags. The move from the current to the older forum can be handled pragmatically, I think. Keep the length of the current forum at about 100 threads. When reaching 120, move everything that has finished airing to the older forum, from the last thread up, until you reach 80. The numbers 80/100/120 are examples of course. That would be 15 min of administrative work per season, I estimate, much less than the constant monitoring of license announcements and subbing status that has to be done regardless.

I do not think that organizing series season-wise is a good idea. I already have trouble remembering what started in summer 2008 and what in fall. It would also make any contribution to the older series threads pretty much invisible.

[KholdStare]

The only thing I will say is that I also do not like organizing series season-wise. Personally, I like the idea of "Ongoing" with the subforums "Fansubbed" and "Streamed"/a similar version.

[Proto]

I don't know if it's possible in vbulletin to have multiple thread structure options according to the user likings? Because personally I'd like to see a more season oriented approach to the series, however for people who prefer a ongoing/fansubbed/licensed option maybe they could just select a different setting?

[SinsI]

Originally Posted by GHDpro

The revised structure works as follows:

1) Is the anime series licensed for (eventual) release on DVD or Blu-ray?*
Yes -> Thread belongs in "Licensed" forum.
No -> Continue below.

2) Is the anime series available (as fansub or streaming) with English subtitles?
Yes -> Thread belongs in "Fansubbed" forum.
No -> Thread belongs in "Unaired" forum.

But once again, this forum structure is not ideal - so suggestions are welcome.

*) We assume Funimation and Viz simulcasts will be released on DVD or Blu-ray eventually: it's not a matter of "if", but "when". In case of Dragon Ball Kai, it's based on DBZ, which is licensed by Funimation, which also holds the license for pretty much everything else Dragon Ball anime related.

I think that anything simulcasted - be it by CR, Viz or Funimation - should be strictly in the "Fansubbed" forum. The reason is that those series are available online right now, at this very moment . "Licensed" is a black hole for many series - they can stay untranslated for many years till the licensing company finally decides to actually make the DVDs. Kiss Dum Engage Planet has been licensed for over two years - and I've yet to see it outside of partially fansubbed form; how many others have suffered the same fate?

[Proto]

Maybe a streaming subforum within the licensed board?

[KholdStare]

Originally Posted by Proto

Maybe a streaming subforum within the licensed board?

But the point is the majority (I believe) of the staff believes that CR titles should not be listed as licensed. That was the reason for the change in the first place, to give it a status that is "less than licensed" (for lack of a better phrase) while still recognizing that it is simulcasted.

[Proto]

Personally I don't really agree with that position. The point of fansubs in the first place was to increase the west awareness to a certain title, or to anime in general. Once a title is easily available for the western audience the role of fansubs is over right then and there, which is the whole idea behind 'licensing' in the fansub community (whoever respects it in any case, a group which Animesuki I believe belongs to). Something is considered licensed in the west not because it is printed in round shiny disks, but because you can legally acquire the media in whatever form, be it vhs tapes, dvd's, vcd's or internet streams.

[Quarkboy]

Originally Posted by Proto

Personally I don't really agree with that position. The point of fansubs in the first place was to increase the west awareness to a certain title, or to anime in general. Once a title is easily available for the western audience the role of fansubs is over right then and there, which is the whole idea behind 'licensing' in the fansub community (whoever respects it in any case, a group which Animesuki I believe belongs to). Something is considered licensed in the west not because it is printed in round shiny disks, but because you can legally acquire the media in whatever form, be it vhs tapes, dvd's, vcd's or internet streams.

But that's not what a lot of people, especially the older collector crowd, consider "licensed" unless it has some physically ownable media.

Here's a question for you: Say a PBS station in hawaii goes and buys "dennou coil", subtitles it in english and broadcasts it on their local station. Is Dennou Coil licensed?

CR should be considered in the same category as a broadcaster, not so much as a licensor, because they sell subscriptions for high quality streaming and early access but not for owning media. CR is like a TV station in that regard, it makes money from subscription fees and ad-revenue.

In fact, animax broadcasts english versions of many "unlicensed" shows in countries around the world subbed (or even dubbed) in english. One of these days that might expand to the US, and at that time how will one classify those shows?

[Proto]

Is that your position as Quarkboy the animesuki poster or quarkboy the Crunchyroll employee?

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But that's not what a lot of people, especially the older collector crowd, consider "licensed" unless it has some physically ownable media.

Here's a question for you: Say a PBS station in hawaii goes and buys "dennou coil", subtitles it in english and broadcasts it on their local station. Is Dennou Coil licensed?

CR should be considered in the same category as a broadcaster, not so much as a licensor, because they sell subscriptions for high quality streaming and early access but not for owning media. CR is like a TV station in that regard, it makes money from subscription fees and ad-revenue.

In fact, animax broadcasts english versions of many "unlicensed" shows in countries around the world subbed (or even dubbed) in english. One of these days that might expand to the US, and at that time how will one classify those shows?

I feel CrunchyRoll is a bit different from those examples in that:

1. Technically, R1 DVD's are just as region restricted as CR.
2. Unlike a TV broadcast, you can rewatch CR shows at any time.

[npcomplete]

Originally Posted by Quarkboy

But that's not what a lot of people, especially the older collector crowd, consider "licensed" unless it has some physically ownable media.

Here's a question for you: Say a PBS station in hawaii goes and buys "dennou coil", subtitles it in english and broadcasts it on their local station. Is Dennou Coil licensed?

CR should be considered in the same category as a broadcaster, not so much as a licensor, because they sell subscriptions for high quality streaming and early access but not for owning media. CR is like a TV station in that regard, it makes money from subscription fees and ad-revenue.

In fact, animax broadcasts english versions of many "unlicensed" shows in countries around the world subbed (or even dubbed) in english. One of these days that might expand to the US, and at that time how will one classify those shows?

That's why we can avoid the whole issue of "how" a show is licensed by flagging / tagging with "availability" status. Just like the prosubbed status or some way of indicating "official" release status. As in: "fansubbed" + "official - online" + "official - DVD/BD".

Although there are easy ways around it, even licensed for US DVD release is still technically geography limited.