AnimeSuki Forums

LytHka · 2005-12-30, 18:07

I used the expression "dumb leecher" for a reason. Translation and grammar accuracy always beats all other aspects of fansubbing (except in very rare cases), yet, while screenshot comparison sites do provide *some* information about fansubs they don't provide information about the most important aspects of a fansub. But the dumb leecher sees a "side-by-side" comparison, shows it to others and in the end, only the colour of the subtitle matters or the sharpness of the encode. Forget keeping details of the video, forget original colours of an anime show, forget the right contrast and saturation, forget scene timing, forget editing and translation! The dumb leecher will root for the fansub whose resolution is the highest and whose encoder used too much warpsharp and boosted saturation/contrast. They will post their findings on sites such as anidb.net, forums.animesuki.com and everywhere else where there are a lot of people, saying "zomg, look at the sharpness of this encode! great quality! colours are really vibrant too!" and other dumb leechers will follow as long as that fansub group releases fast.
I've seen enough unjustices promoted this way by the dumb leecher, so for their own sake I'd rather post some comments from Anime-Planet on sites such as ultracarl's so the leecher will at least have *some* idea what he's going to download.

Zalis · 2006-01-02, 04:17

anidb.info has some fansub comparison, but no screen shots. If you go to a series's individual page (and usually AnimeSuki is kind enough to provide the link), you can look at all the groups that are subbing the series and see comments from users about them. Of course, these comments can be dumb/uninformed/fanboyish/biased, but you can usually get an idea if multiple people say, "Too many grammar errors," "Ugly subtitle font," "large filesize, but bad quality."

ArchMageZeratuL · 2006-01-02, 11:04

LytHka, did you ever wonder why people spend thousands of dollars on large plasma/LCD displays, or even projectors? On surround sound systems? That's right, it's to get the best possible quality out of the things they watch. Why? Because it adds to the enjoyment. Otherwise we could all just watch stuff in a 10" greyscale display and be just as entertained by it.

I don't know about you, but I would rather not.

So, of COURSE a very good translation and editing are very important, but so is a good timing, typesetting and encoding. Any flaw is a flaw and WILL subtract from the overall experience.

(On a side note, vibrant colors tend to be a BAD thing, it usually means that the encoder fucked the original colors, but I guess that it could be considered to be a matter of taste...)

This is my belief.

Darth_E_ · 2006-01-02, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

(On a side note, vibrant colors tend to be a BAD thing, it usually means that the encoder fucked the original colors, but I guess that it could be considered to be a matter of taste...)

This is my belief.

There is nothing called "original colours" when dealing with TV rips, as colour itself varies from one raw and another. I personally try to make the colours vibrant because I think it's better than watching the anime with low contrast as it came in the raw ( aka : dullified ).

Yours,
-E

jfs · 2006-01-03, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elly

There is nothing called "original colours" when dealing with TV rips, as colour itself varies from one raw and another. I personally try to make the colours vibrant because I think it's better than watching the anime with low contrast as it came in the raw ( aka : dullified ).

This might be getting off-topic, but, you do know that many anime raws are captured from DTV (Digital Television), right? That means, a raw MPEG2 stream cut and transcoded to something else. Since the raw-encoder is dealing with a digital stream, the colors do not get messed up like they do in traditional analog TV standards like NTSC. As such, bad colors usually only happen either along with other analog TV artifacts (color crosstalk, "dotwalk" and "rainbows") or if the encoder had been smoking things and tried to "improve" them himself.
That's one of the things a good fansub does, though, trawl through the available raws and attempt to find the best one. In rare cases, you can actually find the raw MPEG2 transport streams, which would be the perfect source, because you could then "make your own raw". (I think I managed to find one or two of those for Air TV.)

LytHka · 2006-01-04, 02:45

Offtopic: You can also hit the right colours at least approximately if the official website posts official screenshots of the anime.

Ontopic: ArchMageZeratuL - in case you haven't figured it out yet, fansub is a fanmade product and not meant to be a high quality release in the first place. If *anything* should be HQ it would be the translation and editing. Timing, encoding and typesetting is of secondary meaning to the quality of a fansub. And to answer your question: if a person has money for plasma screens, LCD TVs, LCD projectors and all that, I believe he has enough money to buy legal video releases too.

TheFluff · 2006-01-04, 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by LytHka

Ontopic: ArchMageZeratuL - in case you haven't figured it out yet, fansub is a fanmade product and not meant to be a high quality release in the first place. If *anything* should be HQ it would be the translation and editing. Timing, encoding and typesetting is of secondary meaning to the quality of a fansub. And to answer your question: if a person has money for plasma screens, LCD TVs, LCD projectors and all that, I believe he has enough money to buy legal video releases too.

Why are you promoting H.264 then? Only for filesize?

NoSanninWa · 2006-01-04, 03:57

It took you this long to figure out where LytHka stands on this? He makes most hard-liner's look squishy.

Odds are that he is rabid also, so please don't make him bite.

I'm pretty sure that low filesize is the only advantage that LytHka sees in h264.

LytHka · 2006-01-04, 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoSanninWa

It took you this long to figure out where LytHka stands on this? He makes most hard-liner's look squishy.

Odds are that he is rabid also, so please don't make him bite.

I'm pretty sure that low filesize is the only advantage that LytHka sees in h264.

Indeed. (on all accounts)

lamer_de · 2006-01-04, 04:14

Quote:

Since the raw-encoder is dealing with a digital stream, the colors do not get messed up like they do in traditional analog TV standards like NTSC. As such, bad colors usually only happen either along with other analog TV artifacts (color crosstalk, "dotwalk" and "rainbows") or if the encoder had been smoking things and tried to "improve" them himself.

In theory, yes. The reality is different. Or how else would you explain rainbowing, dotcrawl and the like in raws from BS-i, a digital satellite channel. The color issue might not be that prominent with digital sat channels, but try to find a TV Asahi raws that look remotely the same (and yes, I know they're digital as well). [well, as LiT explained, Japan has D4 connectors, that allow analogue output of copy protected streams up to 720p. I guess that's where all the dotcrawl and rainbows are coming from]

CU,
lamer_de

ArchMageZeratuL · 2006-01-04, 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by LytHka

And to answer your question: if a person has money for plasma screens, LCD TVs, LCD projectors and all that, I believe he has enough money to buy legal video releases too.

Most certainly does, unfortunately, since most groups are overly protective of their subtitles, they can't watch the Region 2-JP DVDs unless they can speak the language. So, if the anime is not licensed, or if the R1 DVDs are worthless (e.g. Fumoffu), they CAN'T watch it in high quality, unless they OCR the subtitles out of the fansubs and remux the DVD... or they can just keep the DVD in a corner, knowing that they supported the studio, and watch fansubs/dvd-rips.

I think that fansubers would have a lot more right to complain about ethics of anything or claim that video quality is not important if their releases were softsubbed, or at least made the subtitles (even if in SRT format) available separately for download. If I recall correctly, you were doing this yourself for ******** ** *****...

For a random example, if I want to watch Full Moon wo Sagashite now, I can either buy the R2 DVDs and learn japanese (or OCR-remux), or download the low quality fansubs and deal with it. Certainly you agree that this is not optimal.

lamer_de · 2006-01-04, 11:21

Quote:

For a random example, if I want to watch Full Moon wo Sagashite now, I can either buy the R2 DVDs and learn japanese (or OCR-remux), or download the low quality fansubs and deal with it. Certainly you agree that this is not optimal.

Well, at least buying the DVD would be more optimal for the producers than to download DVD rips from a certain group of it.
If I want to watch Malhação, I have no other option than to learn portuguese either. Sometimes, life's just a bitch.

CU,
lamer_de

ArchMageZeratuL · 2006-01-04, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamer_de

If I want to watch Malhação, I have no other option than to learn portuguese either. Sometimes, life's just a bitch.

Why would anyone want to watch that, though?

LytHka · 2006-01-04, 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchMageZeratuL

I think that fansubers would have a lot more right to complain about ethics of anything or claim that video quality is not important if their releases were softsubbed, or at least made the subtitles (even if in SRT format) available separately for download. If I recall correctly, you were doing this yourself for ******** ** *****...

Yes, I am, but I am watching all of my DVDs on my PC, so I can niftily load subtitles with MPC and watch that (want to help me isolate WinDVD's Trimension filter for use with MPC?

). You see, not all of us can/want to invest our money into good TV sets (since I'm in PAL area I have a crappy TV who can't convert the NTSC signal on the TV screen) but rather invest it in anime. But I won't lie to you. Most of my purchased DVDs I have watched once, even shows such as AIR TV which is my favorite. So, yes, DVDs are (for me) more or less things to wipe dust off them and to look nice on the shelves.

But I know what your point was.

ArchMageZeratuL · 2006-01-04, 12:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LytHka

want to help me isolate WinDVD's Trimension filter for use with MPC?

I have no idea what exactly is that filter, but can't you just set VSFilter to "Load Always", then start the DVD and tell VSFilter to manually load some subtitles?

Though I guess that wouldn't really work well for multiple episodes per disc unless you manually merged the scripts into one...

LytHka · 2006-01-04, 12:14

I haven't really tried anything else, except MPC's subtitle renderer since it snaps subtitles' beginning to the beginning of episodes. Oh, Trimension is just a good sharpening filter that goes well with deinterlacing.[/OFFTOPIC]

TheFluff · 2006-01-04, 12:38

That's why good HQ rips are better than DVD's, at least on a computer screen - someone was nice enough to do the deinterlacing properly for you. [/trolling]

NoSanninWa · 2006-01-04, 18:22

I think that we're forgetting the topic is "Fansub Comparison site." LytHka and TheFluff are already having this argument in 3 other threads and I don't think that it belongs here also!

Can we get back on topic or else face the wrath of my delete key?

zoltan_hellhound · 2006-12-16, 14:45

Hi everybody.(first post)

I once browsed the web and found a page that containd scans from diferent sub groups.and the diferent subs was reviewd etc.. now i lost the adress

And im just wondering if enybody know what im talking about, and know the adress??

ScR3WiEuS · 2006-12-16, 20:13

D: D: D: D: D:

2006-01-04, 03:57	Link #28
NoSanninWa Weapon of Mass Discussion Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New York, USA	It took you this long to figure out where LytHka stands on this? He makes most hard-liner's look squishy. Odds are that he is rabid also, so please don't make him bite. I'm pretty sure that low filesize is the only advantage that LytHka sees in h264. __________________ There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.

2006-01-04, 12:38	Link #37
TheFluff Excessively jovial fellow Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: ISDB-T Age: 37	That's why good HQ rips are better than DVD's, at least on a computer screen - someone was nice enough to do the deinterlacing properly for you. [/trolling] __________________ \| ffmpegsource 17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's. 17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag! 01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

2006-01-04, 18:22	Link #38
NoSanninWa Weapon of Mass Discussion Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: New York, USA	I think that we're forgetting the topic is "Fansub Comparison site." LytHka and TheFluff are already having this argument in 3 other threads and I don't think that it belongs here also! Can we get back on topic or else face the wrath of my delete key? __________________ There's not that fine a line between willing suspension of disbelief and something just being stupid.

2006-12-16, 14:45	Link #39
zoltan_hellhound Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006	Find page whit anime sub.scans Hi everybody.(first post) I once browsed the web and found a page that containd scans from diferent sub groups.and the diferent subs was reviewd etc.. now i lost the adress And im just wondering if enybody know what im talking about, and know the adress??

2006-12-16, 20:13	Link #40
ScR3WiEuS My E-Penis > Your E-Penis Fansubber Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Brussels, Belgium Age: 39	D: D: D: D: D: __________________ penis, lol Last edited by ScR3WiEuS; 2006-12-17 at 08:36.

2005-12-30, 18:07	Link #21
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	I used the expression "dumb leecher" for a reason. Translation and grammar accuracy always beats all other aspects of fansubbing (except in very rare cases), yet, while screenshot comparison sites do provide some information about fansubs they don't provide information about the most important aspects of a fansub. But the dumb leecher sees a "side-by-side" comparison, shows it to others and in the end, only the colour of the subtitle matters or the sharpness of the encode. Forget keeping details of the video, forget original colours of an anime show, forget the right contrast and saturation, forget scene timing, forget editing and translation! The dumb leecher will root for the fansub whose resolution is the highest and whose encoder used too much warpsharp and boosted saturation/contrast. They will post their findings on sites such as anidb.net, forums.animesuki.com and everywhere else where there are a lot of people, saying "zomg, look at the sharpness of this encode! great quality! colours are really vibrant too!" and other dumb leechers will follow as long as that fansub group releases fast. I've seen enough unjustices promoted this way by the dumb leecher, so for their own sake I'd rather post some comments from Anime-Planet on sites such as ultracarl's so the leecher will at least have some idea what he's going to download.

2006-01-02, 04:17	Link #22
Zalis Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 42	anidb.info has some fansub comparison, but no screen shots. If you go to a series's individual page (and usually AnimeSuki is kind enough to provide the link), you can look at all the groups that are subbing the series and see comments from users about them. Of course, these comments can be dumb/uninformed/fanboyish/biased, but you can usually get an idea if multiple people say, "Too many grammar errors," "Ugly subtitle font," "large filesize, but bad quality."

2006-01-02, 11:04	Link #23
ArchMageZeratuL Aegisub dev IT Support Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Florianópolis, Brazil, Pale Blue Dot Age: 38	LytHka, did you ever wonder why people spend thousands of dollars on large plasma/LCD displays, or even projectors? On surround sound systems? That's right, it's to get the best possible quality out of the things they watch. Why? Because it adds to the enjoyment. Otherwise we could all just watch stuff in a 10" greyscale display and be just as entertained by it. I don't know about you, but I would rather not. So, of COURSE a very good translation and editing are very important, but so is a good timing, typesetting and encoding. Any flaw is a flaw and WILL subtract from the overall experience. (On a side note, vibrant colors tend to be a BAD thing, it usually means that the encoder fucked the original colors, but I guess that it could be considered to be a matter of taste...) This is my belief.

2006-01-04, 02:45	Link #26
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	Offtopic: You can also hit the right colours at least approximately if the official website posts official screenshots of the anime. Ontopic: ArchMageZeratuL - in case you haven't figured it out yet, fansub is a fanmade product and not meant to be a high quality release in the first place. If anything should be HQ it would be the translation and editing. Timing, encoding and typesetting is of secondary meaning to the quality of a fansub. And to answer your question: if a person has money for plasma screens, LCD TVs, LCD projectors and all that, I believe he has enough money to buy legal video releases too.

2006-01-04, 12:14	Link #36
LytHka Banned Join Date: Jan 2004	I haven't really tried anything else, except MPC's subtitle renderer since it snaps subtitles' beginning to the beginning of episodes. Oh, Trimension is just a good sharpening filter that goes well with deinterlacing.[/OFFTOPIC]