(CR) Suzume no Tojimari

[Infinite Zenith]

The lack of shorter works takes away from the art and enjoyment piece: sometimes, a full story can be told very concisely. I happen to remember how Garden of Words' BD release happened within a few weeks of the theatrical screenings back in '13.

[Last Sinner]

I think anyone would start being somewhat conscious of themselves and their work when they're the one that breaks into the revenue that was previously exclusive to Miyazaki. And I still attest the Oscar nomination snub for Your Name is a chip on his shoulder. (Although hopefully people have enough sense to not give a damn about that sham organisation anymore.)

My main hope is that he doesn't enter mogul phase. He is still trying to achieve recognition and make a worthy movie in a relative sense.

[Guardian Enzo]

Based on the interviews I've seen with Shinkai, I don't think the Oscars mean a whole lot to him (they mean a lot less to Japanese artists than Americans would like to believe). And he (like most in his field) is more in awe of Miyazaki than feeling he should he regarded on the same level. He made an entire movie basically in imitation of him, for crying out loud.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

Five Centimeters per Second happens to be one of the most misunderstood of Makoto Shinkai's films. People get hung up on how it's a story of "distance" and "longing for what you can't have", but then miss that it was a film about gaining agency and taking control of one's life

Distance, longing, and loneliness, are still main themes. And not just in that movie. They have always been recurring themes in Shinkai films. Whether we talk Kanojo to Kanojo no Neko or Hoshi no Koe or Beyond the Clouds....

I'd say if there's any difference in his latest works is that he seems to have graduated from that nostalgia to some extent. I mean it's still there but not as heavily emphasized anymore. And I think that's okay. He would have become a one-trick pony if he kept doing movies about separation and loneliness.

[Infinite Zenith]

Those are motifs, not themes, being recurring elements to help support the main message. While it is the case that Voices of A Distant Star dealt with distance, the specific idea of loneliness becomes a supporting element in his later works.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

Those are motifs, not themes, being recurring elements to help support the main message.

As far as I know, abstracts ideas like loneliness aren't motifs. Motifs are specific elements, like imagery or sounds and such, and are meant to evoke certain feelings or mood in a symbolic way. A basic distinction between themes and motifs is that themes are abstracts and conceptual while motifs are tangible and concrete. To give you an example, in Beyond the Clouds, the violin is a motif, and it's meant to evoke Hiroki's longing for Sayuri.

As for Shinkai, loneliness was a main theme (theme, not motif) at least until 5 centimeters.

[Infinite Zenith]

You're thinking of symbols, which are more concrete. The key part of a motif is that it is recurring. Symbols feed into a motif (e.g. hearing the violins, seeing the trains or the snow reinforces the idea of loneliness), but loneliness in and of itself is not a theme until there's a consequent (e.g. loneliness has this impact on an individual). The film itself, when interpreted in a vacuum, might appear to be about loneliness, but the novels (both for the film and the side story) elaborate further and fill the blanks in.

I am aware a lot of people praised Five Centimeters because it was "realistic" for showing how there's not always a happily ever after in life, but Shinkai was actually being much more optimistic than people catch on. This is most evident in the film's end: Takaki isn't smiling because he saw Akari again, but because he feels that in this moment, he was able to have enough agency to fulfil his old promise. The films won't convey this, but the side stories do, which perhaps speaks more to a need to be less ambiguous in his films: later movies like Garden of Words and Your Name are more successful in this regard.

[Guardian Enzo]

I don’t think there was any particular need to be less ambiguous. Shinkai’s narrative style through 5 CM (and to an extent Garden of Words) was basically poetic. Poetry almost by definition leaves meaning subject to the interpretation of the reader. After GoW Shinkai basically switched to prosaic narratives, with much cleaner and more clear-cut themes and outcomes. Is that progress? Depends on what one wants from a filmmaker. It certainly helped him commercially.

[Infinite Zenith]

Poetry is inherently less accessible and more of a headache when it comes to interpretation. It's fine for folks with literary backgrounds, but not everyone is going to have that kind of know-how (nor is it reasonable to expect writers to cater to only a small subset of the audience). The transition over to more accessible storylines is Shinkai's decision alone: directors change their styles over time both in response to their experiences, desires to tell a story and yes, market forces.

At any rate, the core of this misunderstanding comes from incomplete knowledger of what a motif is. Loneliness isn't a theme in Shinkai's works (yes, motifs can be abstract): if we look at each of Voices of a Distant Star, The Place Promised in Our Early Days and Five Centimetres per Second, we find that Shinkai still speaks to the idea that people can meet again. Noboru ends up joining the forces and is part of the team to rescue the stranded Lysithea, per a newspaper clipping in the ending. Sayuri ends up waking up, giving Hiroki a chance to start over with her anew. Takaki smiles at the train crossing, happy he's fulfilled an old promise. In each of Shinkai's works, "loneliness" is just a part of the background: more important to Shinkai is what he ends up saying about how people deal with separation. Themes are actionable, and "dealing with separation" is a theme. Loneliness is merely a concept used to show one consequence of separation. Voices of a Distant Star and The Place Promised in Our Early Days both say determination and resolve is a first step towards closing the distance, while Five Centimetres per Second indicates that people can also accept separation as they mature, and their world view changes.

Those are what themes look like: a clear, distinct message for viewers. His later films inherit these ideas but present things more openly, making them more accessible. From an accessibility standpoint, most people love this. From an artistic/poetic standpoint, that's up to the individual, but I'm not particularly interested in a debate on whether or not that's progress, since there's no qualitative means of fairly saying whether one is definitively better than the other.

[Last Sinner]

If there is a quality that makes Shinkai endure, it's that he has been able to connect with adults in a non-family focused way. He has from the start. He represents something that isn't Miyazaki. However, there has been a long-standing mistake in the West ever since Miyazaki won that Oscar for Spirited Away - that he is 'it' in anime. Hell, I thought the notion that Akira was 'it' for movies was pervasive to a degree but it's endemic in the West for Miyazaki to be 'it'. Good luck hoping anyone knows who other notable directors are. He is effectively in line with Disney - kids focused, 'family friendly'. Disney until the mid 90s actually were capable but they are just ubiquitous/brainless now. Also, there is a relative brainwashing that it animation isn't Disney, Westerners shouldn't attempt to watch it. I encounter it all the time and I'm well weary of it. Which is why I'm glad Arcane's success grew too much to not be covered. Animation for adults worked - go figure!

I just find it hypocritical that Hollywood endears this stance. Nolan took a lot - arguably too much - from Kon's final film, Paprika, in making Inception. Even more egregious is that Black Swan really took a lot from Perfect Blue to the point you can make a case for it being a blatant rip-off. So a director that hardly gets a mention in Western countries ends up being the basis for multiple movies that end up being critical and financial successes there. Not surprised.

Shinkai held a world premiere of Garden of Words at a convention in Australia in 2013. Returning to focusing what he knows and not trying to mimic the supposed master was very welcome and doing a scenario you normally wouldn't see in such a tasteful way was electric. Thankfully in 2016, he managed to generate some significant buzz about Your Name globally. It contained even more things you just wouldn't see normally in certain scenes/behaviours. I remember seeing people of a very broad age range engage it and explore anime more in the aftermath. It felt like there was finally a long-term alternative to Miyazaki. But it still feels as if he's still somewhat a relative unknown. Someone I know in the media says Shinkai lacks the people to promote his work, but then again if he did . But there are forces that want him to remain a relative unknown. Shinkai symbolises relative change and a viable alternative to what the powers that be want anime to be regarded as. I think that will be the case for quite some time. Media in the West almost seems desperate to make Hosoda the successor to Miyazaki and they sure give him preferential treatment compared to Shinkai.

And I hope it doesn't affect Shinkai's work in the sense that he feels he needs to please audiences every time given what Your Name accomplished. Weathering With You really feels like that pressure was there. He doesn't need to be like Miyazaki or feel like he's chasing Miyazaki's ghost. Miyazaki had some major highs but he has had some incredibly major lows. Furthermore, his lack of time given to his family and what it did to Goro, his eternal hatred of adults and the way the world has changed grew tired over a decade ago. If he stayed retired after Spirited Away, I'd have respected him more, but after he came back the first time I knew this would happen multiple times. Also, that his smoking didn't hit him hard but took Kon's life at such a relatively young age is criminal. Hosoda has some form of talent but his work heavily seems to be about the vibe rather than the content and his pitched audience gets him favour in certain circles.

If there is one thing that did seem interesting about the Suzume no Tojimari trailer and blurb, there seems to be no emphasis on a relationship or pursuit of one. If Shinkai does go for this, I'll be very intrigued, as I would like to see him do that at some point.

Also, Zenith - the fans I know in my area did not have any issue getting the message in 5 Centimetres Per Second. While it is one of the few of Shinkai's works I won't watch again, it's not because of the themes or outcome. It's because my contempt for Takaki is almost unbeaten. I can't empathise with that jerk ever.

[Infinite Zenith]

I personally would love to see Shinkai step away from the whole relationships game and turn his perspectives towards new topics; that'd be a bit of a game-changer that shows he's got enough breadth to explore stories in a different realm.

My remarks about people not picking up Five Centimetres Per Second in my neck of the woods stems from Anime News Network declaring the movie was about unrequited love and loneliness being realistically portrayed, and then this led people to endlessly parrot, on their fan blogs, Wikipedia and TV Tropes, the same idea that "you can't get what you want in life". On my end, I empathise with Takaki, but only on the virtue of agency: the side stories and official novelisation indicate his attitudes and coldness come from his moving around, and once he settles down as an adult, his views change. The last part, is what I relate to: as youth, we go wherever the adults go, but life does shift once people are given a chance to responsibility and drive themselves to go where they choose. In other words, I am openly stating that people shouldn't place so much stock in Anime News Network's opinions of things, especially when the official novelisations clarify (and invalidate) some of the older points.

For me, what I'd most wish for is a return to Garden of Words style release frames. The film became available on BD the same month it came out. I know some "experts" here will say no, that will be impossible with Suzume no Tojimari because Shinkai's films are now larger blockbusters that demand more theatre time for maximum local profits, but I'm just saying that the old release patterns were the fairest for us overseas viewers.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

I am openly stating that people shouldn't place so much stock in Anime News Network's opinions of things

ANN don't even try to do research. Their reviews of Fate/Stay Night are legendarily hilarious. The person who watched UBW in full learned after she did that that it was the second of three arcs and had to retract a lot of what she said. Aside from certain press releases, their existence has no positive purpose.

[Ragashingo]

Very good points, Last Sinner. I love the heck out of Your Name because it is a great gateway for people who think they don't like "that anime thing." A relatable story that's both fun and impactful. A full, well done English translation where even the songs are in English if you want them to be for people not yet used to reading subtitles. And, of course, it's beautiful and its animation is up there with any animated work.

I'm sure as heck not gonna try and introduce someone to anime using Adolescence of Utena or even really things like Spirited Away or Princess Mononoke. There is a huge resistance on the part of normal western filmgoers to foreign animation. They think animation has to be Aladdin or Toy Story when anime offers so much more. So, it's nice to have a movie or two or three from Shenkai that I can ease people into anime with. Then I can move them to more advanced things. Oh, you liked the time travel? Well, let me show you Steins;Gate. Oh, you liked rural Japan aspects, let's watch Akebi's Sailor Uniform. Or whatever. I love Shinkai films for what they are, but I also love them because I have successfully used them as jumping off points to lead friends further into anime.

I'm also enjoying all the talk of the meanings behind things like 5 Centimeters Per Second and Garden of Words, because Shinkai films do have enough meat to dig into. As for release windows and time between theatrical releases and physical releases... that's not really the director's or anime's job to care about. I think all movies should be immediately available and that theaters should win customers by providing unmatched big screen experiences that are hard for most people to get in their homes rather than theaters being a place to see movies because you just can't see them anywhere else for a few months...

[Last Sinner]

Spirited Away was THE gateway anime for a long time. I'm sure in safer circles it still is. I guess in present times, it's way in the past for younger people now. If a lot of people consider two years back too old, can only imagine what 20 years ago invokes in them.

I don't even know what I'd consider to be a gateway anime anymore. Your Name certainly could be one but I get the impression obvious shounens of recent years are the most received. I guess you could call Steins;Gate one but I'd be wary of suggesting it immediately. While Episode 1 is strong, the following episodes are very much a shock for friends that had been watching anime for decades and they dropped it.

[Ragashingo]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Spirited Away was THE gateway anime for a long time. I'm sure in safer circles it still is. I guess in present times, it's way in the past for younger people now. If a lot of people consider two years back too old, can only imagine what 20 years ago invokes in them.

I don't even know what I'd consider to be a gateway anime anymore. Your Name certainly could be one but I get the impression obvious shounens of recent years are the most received. I guess you could call Steins;Gate one but I'd be wary of suggesting it immediately. While Episode 1 is strong, the following episodes are very much a shock for friends that had been watching anime for decades and they dropped it.

Spirited Away is maybe seen as that by people who already love anime, but to me when I was just starting out, it was a pretty big turn off! It got "weird" in the middle. There was a lot I did not understand and could not relate to. Like, for instance, No-face and the bath stuff. I just feel Your Name is a good bit safer to a newbie.

Now.. if they're someone that likes sci-fi spaceship shows, I might very well start them on Space Battleship Yamato 2199 for its great action and relatable characters. If they like fight-y shows, then sure, there's a number of recent things they might like. If they like time travel, then absolutely, Steins;Gate is a top pick (and it's one of my favored 2nd anime for people starting out. Though I do agree it bogs down a little at first for some people until it hits that halfway mark.) Etc. Your Name is a good starting point in general, but by all means I'd tailor my suggestions to fit what someone likes. There's plenty of good anime out there, of course!

But again, Your Name has just enough Japanese content and locations to feel acceptably foreign but has more than enough familiar themes and flow and messaging that it won't clash with people's perceived correct way to structure a show or movie... in a way that I feel Spirited Away or other Miyazaki films don't. If I had to recommend a Miyazaki film, I'd probably do Kiki's Delivery Service. His other films may be better known or more representative of his work, but I feel Kiki is a good gentle entry point...

Moving slightly more on-topic (though I am loving the discussion), I'd like to see Shinkai go back to space sci-fi again. I love Voices of a Distant Star... but I think anybody will admit it's kinda an incomplete work. Great for what it was and how many people worked on it... but I'd be thrilled with a full-blown modern Shinkai space epic.

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

Moving slightly more on-topic (though I am loving the discussion), I'd like to see Shinkai go back to space sci-fi again. I love Voices of a Distant Star... but I think anybody will admit it's kinda an incomplete work. Great for what it was and how many people worked on it... but I'd be thrilled with a full-blown modern Shinkai space epic.

A space epic with Shinkai graphics would be eye-popping: I'd love to see that, too, especially if they do battles between the rings of a planet, or perhaps in the atmosphere of a gas giant. Then, there's the interiors of the ships, the futuristic cities, vast planet-scapes...the possibilities are limitless!

[Last Sinner]

Shinkai in space with some lo-fi from the Lofi Girl group would be divine...or even an underwater world...

[Guardian Enzo]

A useful way to frame this, IMO, is that in Japan (and some other countries, France especially) animation is a medium. In the U.S., animation is seen as a genre. And that colors the way Hollywood and much of the public think about anime as a construct and anime films individually.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

A useful way to frame this, IMO, is that in Japan (and some other countries, France especially) animation is a medium. In the U.S., animation is seen as a genre. And that colors the way Hollywood and much of the public think about anime as a construct and anime films individually.

I've always thought of it as a medium. But yes, the US does seem to make a big deal of what they do with animation vs what other countries do.

[Guardian Enzo]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

I've always thought of it as a medium. But yes, the US does seem to make a big deal of what they do with animation vs what other countries do.

I have a friend who’s in the Academy and gets onto the animation committee almost every year. The animation committee is important because they vote on what gets nominated (for best animated feature and short), before the entire membership votes on the winners (in every category). He’s told me some hilarious horror stories about the level of ignorance when it comes to the members where animation generally (much less anime) is concerned. And these are the members who bothered to volunteer for the animation committee, meaning they’re theoretically at least interested, and have to commit to seeing all the eligible films (though many of them lie about that). The general membership is surely even worse!

There’s a story (I forgot who it was, honestly) of one of the best animated feature winners being approached at a ball afterwards by a well-known producer/exec who asked him if he was looking to “graduate to live-action”. Guy basically told the exec to go eff himself.