Macross Delta - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Edit: Also everyone keeps saying the Windermerians deserves punishment (myself included), but what about Berger doesn't he deserve to be punished as well??

I am not sure if you have seen Lords of War with Nicholas Cage but what I learn is that such guys are mostly unreachable for justice although they deserve judgement as well.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

I'm not going to defend them as I do believe they deserve punishment, but sadly in Macross Franchise this episode is by no means the worst loss of life... Goodbye billions of citizens of Earth and if I remember correctly Windermere lost millions via dimension bomb, Grace alone destroyed an entire world (plus Vajra killed quite a few people), protodevilin (forgot the guy's name) also destroyed a world, in Zero the bird human thing was going to kill all humans. In Macross damages tend to spread far and wide.

Yeah, but a good part of those guys you cited got a bullet to the head for what they did (Grace, Bodolzas fleet, many many Vajra). So it ain't that there is no accountability in the franchise.

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, but a good part of those guys you cited got a bullet to the head for what they did (Grace, Bodolzas fleet, many many Vajra). So it ain't that there is no accountability in the franchise.

We don't yet know if they aren't going to be held accountable as the show is not over and I did say they deserve to be at least punished for their doings-- even if they themselves are victims.

[Alhazred]

Hmm... thinking on the thing that just happened to Al Shahal, it occurs to me that none of these 'turn humanity into a hivemind' conspiracies seem terribly well thought out- for the simple reason that, unlike the Vajra, individual human bodies are not particularly self-sufficient or easy to keep alive without extremely complex behavior patterns and support infrastructure. Human habitats are generally not generally built like Zentradi ships, designed to provide everything their occupants need to survive with a minimum of fuss. If any of these hivemind schemes ever actually succeeded there would likely be a catastrophic drop in the hivemind biomass within the first few months.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Spoiler:

Roid first mentioned the brainwaves thing in Episode 18, when he told his people to study what was happening on Voldor. So, plan all along has more backing?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Also everyone keeps saying the Windermerians deserves punishment (myself included), but what about Berger doesn't he deserve to be punished as well??

I don't really wish to join this argument... however, this episode is a good reason to believe Roid should not be overlooked in deserving punishment.

Now I don't believe anyone should die, a prison sentence is fine. However, if he is the mastermind, I'd be fine if he never sees Windermere again (because he used all the Aerial Knights for his experiments and effectively aged Heinz against his will (if those scars mean it)).

The Aerial Knights do not deserve said punishment because I believe all of them once believed this is a righteous path, so a prison sentence or a rehabilitation camp is a good idea for them, especially Keith because I feel so sorry for him in this episode (realizing his brother will die).

Berger is... he's not really a "bad guy" right now, only a messenger. Now if he develops into one, we could revisit this discussion. Right now, he is acting the role of an informant, he's living between the lines.

I don't believe all of Windermere deserves punishment at all. Because seriously, none of the civilians have any idea what is really going on outside of their world. After all, what did the civilians do to aid in this war that is unusual of their normal lives? They grew apples and contributed them to the soldiers like every other planet in the universe. Big deal. It's still not the civilians who are killing/enslaving hundreds of soldiers and/or civilians in other planets. They hold no power over if they wish to go to war or not either.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, but a good part of those guys you cited got a bullet to the head for what they did (Grace, Bodolzas fleet, many many Vajra). So it ain't that there is no accountability in the franchise.

Spoiler for Frontier:

I agree on Grace here. She did gain her "punishment" by dying to Alto's gun.

However, Frontier (and NUNS especially) believed in Ranka, who said the Vajra only did as their instincts said: protecting their own kind; and allowed the Vajra to escape their galaxy. That said, I believe if they did hold Vajra accountable, it'd be an all-out war because the Vajra only communicate via song. How could you be diplomatic with a race which could wipe you out in seconds? Of which doesn't even need bullets to do so? Kind of hard, if you ask me. I believe Frontier is logical in allowing them to live.

This also going to the argument of if a pack of wild animals killing your friends should be accountable for their whole species or not if it's their instinct...

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

The Aerial Knights do not deserve said punishment because I believe all of them once believed this is a righteous path, so a prison sentence or a rehabilitation camp is a good idea for them, especially Keith because I feel so sorry for him in this episode (realizing his brother will die).

The Aerial Knights as an institution should be torn down as they are military adventuring knights not soldiers.

Any prison sentence though would be a life imprisonment effectively due to their short lifespan.

I don't believe all of Windermere deserves punishment at all. Because seriously, none of the civilians have any idea what is really going on outside of their world. After all, what did the civilians do to aid in this war that is unusual of their normal lives? They grew apples and contributed them to the soldiers like every other planet in the universe. Big deal. It's still not the civilians who are killing/enslaving hundreds of soldiers and/or civilians in other planets. They hold no power over if they wish to go to war or not either.

The royalty and nobility which pushed for this war should be deprived of political power and turn Windermere into a democracy.

It is evident there is hardly any social mobility for the peasants unless they join the Aerial Knights.

Windermere would probably denied a military force to threaten their neighbors again.

I can see occupied worlds Voldor, Ragna and Al Shahal playing political and economic hardball though on Windermere for the coming decades for the suffering they gave.

Problem with that is with the short lifespan of Windermereans they would resent being made responsible for their ancestors actions.

[magnuskn]

Just shortly adding that I don't want collective punishment for all Windermerans. What I want is accountability (and punishment for Roid and, to be honest at this point, Heinz, although in the latter case I'd settle for him losing his crown).

As far as the Vajra go, I'm fine with them having lost a sizable number of their population (since they are 100% weaponized there are no civilians among them, anyway) for attacking in the way they did. Wiping out the entire species would of course have been idiotic after a peace was found.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Berger is... he's not really a "bad guy" right now, only a messenger. Now if he develops into one, we could revisit this discussion. Right now, he is acting the role of an informant, he's living between the lines.

correct me but the one who seeks profits from the results of the protoculture weapons is Berger. While windermere (Gramia and Roid) seeks for justice for what happened to them years ago, the one who is willing to sell this weapon is Berger.

What should his message be? Weapons to bring peace to the world? I am not speaking Road or Gramia free of guilt but the "Lord of War" is Berger, since he provides both NUN and windermere with weaponry. He is far more than a normal informant and the way he sat idling in his chair looks more like he is the true power behind this war.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

correct me but the one who seeks profits from the results of the protoculture weapons is Berger. While windermere (Gramia and Roid) seeks for justice for what happened to them years ago, the one who is willing to sell this weapon is Berger.

What should his message be? Weapons to bring peace to the world? I am not speaking Road or Gramia free of guilt but the "Lord of War" is Berger, since he provides both NUN and windermere with weaponry. He is far more than a normal informant and the way he sat idling in his chair looks more like he is the true power behind this war.

He is acting like Orihara Izaya from Durarara!! and is playing both sides for his own benefit (it's normal of people like himself who know more than they should). Whichever one benefits from it, he'll profit from. The problem is: he is not the "bad guy" because even if he does profit from it, he is not the cause of any of this. No, in fact, if you recall, Gramia is the one who appointed him, is the one who believed in him, and again, information is a weapon in itself. Of course, having or giving information is different than carrying out the plan itself, and Berger does none of carrying out anything in the series so far. He is observing from afar and seeing how things go. Again, he is like Izaya in this regard, and it's played so well in this setting.

And by messenger,... well, if you're unaware, messengers are those who exploit giving information to the enemy in order to rile them up and observe from afar. Nowadays, an informant does so and is paid for it.

He has no "message" to deliver in terms of what is right or wrong; he is a plot device in Delta for exploiting all learned on Windermere and delivering it to Chaos so both will be riled up enough to fight each other and thus possibly spur the Protoculture device into action.

Again, a "bad guy" is an evil character who's actions define his role in the series; Berger's only weapon is his information, ergo words. He is doing nothing to any character outside of telling them half-truths. What they do with it is their own fault.

[Matts]

(I hate myself for getting into this discussion.)

Nah, you can argue for Gramia, but Roid is well beyond "seeking justice" at this point. Total world domination for racial superiority is in no way seeking justice, it's just pure evil, no matter how someone tries to justify it. For now and going by the amount of casualties (military, civilians, an entire planet), Roid is on-par with Grace/Galaxy. Possibly worse. I dunno what happened to him in his childhood or whatever sad justification they'll throw in for him but at this point I could care less. I have very little, if any sympathy for the other Knights too. Especially Keith, who massacred an entire fleet with a smile on his face. The only people I feel bad for are Wind civilians, the people during Heinz' coronation were nobels, even they were skeptical, everybody else seems to be left out of the loop or lied to, and they are going to pay the price (as is usually the case post-war), unless the show pulls a magical happy ending (which by it's track record I would not be surprised at all... sigh).

[magnuskn]

I don't know, man. It's now down to a maximum of five episodes left. The time to pull the "everybody hug now!" ending is kinda getting short and we got no Ranka on a suicide mission for love and huggyness yet.

[Alhazred]

All they really need to do to minimally set up an 'everybody hug' ending is to dramatically reveal the 'real antagonist' and then run out the clock so they don't leave themselves or the audience time to linger on the atrocities of war. It is an extreme cop-out of an ending strategy, but i wouldn't put it past these writers.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I don't know, man. It's now down to a maximum of five episodes left. The time to pull the "everybody hug now!" ending is kinda getting short and we got no Ranka on a suicide mission for love and huggyness yet.

...Well we've long ago already known where Hayate stands on that front

Spoiler for LOLOL EP 5 Not giving a flying Fu- about your interspecies connection. It's too much damn pressure man.:

Also..once again waiting on the subs but...really?
Like I know Roid was always going to be a villain but why get so bothered when Keith was trying to start wars / over exert Heinz Loli-king then (and why is Keith now suddenly worried about Heinz's Loli-king's well being I just don't even--)? I swear to god these Windermeres are bloody bipolar as hell.

[Matts]

It's probably in the manga that 95% of the viewers, Japanese included, will not bother to check.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by matts

it's probably in the manga that 95% of the viewers, japanese included, will not bother to check.

-flips desk-

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by ippus

-flips desk-

I feel this so bad whenever people say to read the manga or novel for Delta.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I feel this so bad whenever people say to read the manga or novel for Delta.

It'ssolazy....

It'ssolazy....
...sosoverylazy

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Again, a "bad guy" is an evil character who's actions define his role in the series; Berger's only weapon is his information, ergo words. He is doing nothing to any character outside of telling them half-truths. What they do with it is their own fault.

It's a reasonable supposition that NUG would be quite willing to license whatever technology Epsilon has developed from the current conflict (or will pick over whatever wreckage remains at the end). Direct mind control would be an efficient way to pacify a rogue Zentradi fleet until they were either safely enlightened or reaction bombed into vapor.

[BetoJR]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I feel this so bad whenever people say to read the manga or novel for Delta.

Honestly, it's wrong to expect people to, I think.

That's just the way the world works. Most viewers cannot be bothered to hunt down ancillary works, no matter how invested they are in a product. If you launch a multimedia venture with multiple stuff, and expect them all to succeed... Don't kid yourself, you will fail, somewhere. Miserably or not, but you probably won't see a lot of successes in all of your products - just look at all the stuff that came out in the launches of anything from the sequels to the Matrix to Star Wars: Shadows of The Empire; hits and misses, everywhere (some great, some good, some very, veeeeeeery bad). And, worse still, if you go expecting them all to tell a single, cohesive story? Then you're screwing with the fans, plain and simple. That's not very nice.

I, for one, don't really agree with this - even worse when there's the pesky problem of the language barrier and the difficulties of the importation fees (when the products are even available in a language I can understand). It's... complicated.

That's just the way it is. IMHO, of course. You're all free to disagree, obviously.

TL;DR: I'll keep to what's in the anime. If it's not in it, but it's somewhere, I'll treat it as supplemental information, when it's available from a trusted source - but it probably won't affect my enjoyment of the show all that much. Does that make much sense?