(L) Wortenia Senki

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

I'm not sure you realize but in web novel Suduo said it very clearly that he doesn't really care about the organization or their goal and rather than saying he is doing what organization want is more like he is using the organization to achieve his own personal goal. Also let not forget the fact that the organization order Saito to have imperial princess and crown prince to go to conflict with each other so I find it hard to believe the organization goal is to have the empire conquer the continent if they did then they would not have order Saito to have princess and prince fight against each other trying to start a internal conflict within the empire.

Well, they eventually want to take over the empire and not have to rule from the shadows anymore, but at present they can't risk it yet. Perhaps the conflict between Shardina and her brother is the start of their takeover.

As for Sudou, I get that and am aware, but he still operates under orders or else they would eliminate him too. After all, when Saito met a string of failures, he feared that he would be killed as a means to silence him. I imagine that it is the same for Sudou, that he does what he wants, which is wanton violence, but within the confines of the Organization's agenda of world domination. If he just started slaughtering people en masse for no reason, they would kill him too as an impediment.

So that is why I am asking about how much of his action is in line with the Organization and how much of it has to do with the factional disputes. Or is he taking advantage of them being distracted to just do what he wants without a care?

[jagt]

Originally Posted by Disdanny

I just want to know did he meet up with his Grandpa and Sister yet?

Ryoma already met his grandfather two volumes ago, Asuka'a group is still far due to the civil war.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Snowbold

Well, they eventually want to take over the empire and not have to rule from the shadows anymore, but at present they can't risk it yet. Perhaps the conflict between Shardina and her brother is the start of their takeover.

As for Sudou, I get that and am aware, but he still operates under orders or else they would eliminate him too. After all, when Saito met a string of failures, he feared that he would be killed as a means to silence him. I imagine that it is the same for Sudou, that he does what he wants, which is wanton violence, but within the confines of the Organization's agenda of world domination. If he just started slaughtering people en masse for no reason, they would kill him too as an impediment.

So that is why I am asking about how much of his action is in line with the Organization and how much of it has to do with the factional disputes. Or is he taking advantage of them being distracted to just do what he wants without a care?

I still don't understand why the organization would want to take over the empire the reason I say that is because the moderate fraction and neutral fraction doesn't seem to be very interested in it rather it would make more sense to me if they are using the empire to start a war to make more money like last time and is probably the reason that they want to start a internal conflict within empire in order start to civil war to make more money instead of trying to take over the empire. In fact in web novel I recall they done same thing for Rozeria kingdom except they fail because Ryouma started the civil war much earlier than expected and the reason they fail is that they need to get timing right in order make money or profit. As for Suduo I still have some doubt about whether or not is he going to be obedient in following order like Saito despite the fact that even if there a good chance that Sudou can get killed for disobeying order from the organization. I still feel won't be issued if he managed to come up with plan to escape and join the church for protection since they might let him join since he know a lot about the organization where he can provide information that might be useful to them. Not only that the author might have made Suduo the main antagonist in this story to fight against Ryouma so for main antagonist to be kill by the organization for disobeying their order or being afraid of them. It would probably make the story less interesting and more boring which is the reason that I find it hard to believe Sudou is going be obedient like Saito and normally main antagonist don't like being order around by other in some stories in fact it might be better for Suduo to disobey order from the organization since I am curious in finding out what would happen to him if he does.

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

I still don't understand why the organization would want to take over the empire the reason I say that is because the moderate fraction and neutral fraction doesn't seem to be very interested in it rather it would make more sense to me if they are using the empire to start a war to make more money like last time and is probably the reason that they want to start a internal conflict within empire in order start to civil war to make more money instead of trying to take over the empire. In fact in web novel I recall they done same thing for Rozeria kingdom except they fail because Ryouma started the civil war much earlier than expected and the reason they fail is that they need to get timing right in order make money or profit. As for Suduo I still have some doubt about whether or not is he going to be obedient in following order like Saito despite the fact that even if there a good chance that Sudou can get killed for disobeying order from the organization. I still feel won't be issued if he managed to come up with plan to escape and join the church for protection since they might let him join since he know a lot about the organization where he can provide information that might be useful to them. Not only that the author might have made Suduo the main antagonist in this story to fight against Ryouma so for main antagonist to be kill by the organization for disobeying their order or being afraid of them. It would probably make the story less interesting and more boring which is the reason that I find it hard to believe Sudou is going be obedient like Saito and normally main antagonist don't like being order around by other in some stories in fact it might be better for Suduo to disobey order from the organization since I am curious in finding out what would happen to him if he does.

IIRC, an earlier volume stated that the Organization's revenge for the collective summoning of people to this world was to conquer said world. However, there are too few of them to actually do that so they manipulated a small kingdom in the center of the continent until it expanded into an empire and are progressively aiding in its expansion from the shadows.

The whole market manipulation is not contrary to this, covert operations cost money. During the cold war, the US did all kinds of shady things to fund covert work to try and keep it out of the public eye.

Perhaps, but Sudou would only be a political/strategic antagonist. Because if Sudou could have killed Ryoma when they first fought, he would have. However, Ryoma is significantly stronger now than he was then. Sudou on the other hands uses underhanded means that does not lend to increased prana consumption, which is how people gain power in this world. Ryoma on the other hand has significant kills under his belt that have catapulted him up in mastering chakras. My bet is that Sudou stands no chance in a fight, fair or unfair, which is why he manipulates others to cause the bloodshed he craves.

I actually would like to see the Organization kill him. Kind of like how in the first John Wick, the Continental killed the traitorous hit-girl. It didn't have to be MC, and it foreshadowed how powerful the syndicate was.

[stevenjai1]

At least we can all agree that the author made Suduo some sort of antagonist to go against Ryouma and I'm also curious in finding out if Gerhart really has courage to go to war against Ryouma the reason I say that is because he does seem to be afraid of Ryouma so he might choose to surrender and work for Ryoma as his new king as long as Ryouma guaranteed him position as prime minister and make him duke since Gerhart was never interested in becoming king so I find it not completely impossible that could happen if Suduo decide to give up as well.

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

At least we can all agree that the author made Suduo some sort of antagonist to go against Ryouma and I'm also curious in finding out if Gerhart really has courage to go to war against Ryouma the reason I say that is because he does seem to be afraid of Ryouma so he might choose to surrender and work for Ryoma as his new king as long as Ryouma guaranteed him position as prime minister and make him duke since Gerhart was never interested in becoming king so I find it not completely impossible that could happen if Suduo decide to give up as well.

I agree that Sudou is an antagonist opposite of Ryoma.

I don't think that is Gelhart's plan, though this is just my guessing. My guess is for him to take any of Rhoadseria that Ryoma hasn't taken. He will take it under Radine's name, calling for the ouster of Lupis for causing the defeat of their kingdom to a single baron. Regardless of the tbd factors, the civil war would leave the victors too exhausted to go after Ryoma who is building power and with high morale and loyal elite troops and powerful international connections.

Gelhart would just use Radine as a puppet since she has been recognized as royalty.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Snowbold

I agree that Sudou is an antagonist opposite of Ryoma.

I don't think that is Gelhart's plan, though this is just my guessing. My guess is for him to take any of Rhoadseria that Ryoma hasn't taken. He will take it under Radine's name, calling for the ouster of Lupis for causing the defeat of their kingdom to a single baron. Regardless of the tbd factors, the civil war would leave the victors too exhausted to go after Ryoma who is building power and with high morale and loyal elite troops and powerful international connections.

Gelhart would just use Radine as a puppet since she has been recognized as royalty.

I would have agree with you if Gelhart plan involve in taking as many territory under Ladine name and use Ladine as a puppet to rule from the shadow. However the problem is that in web novel Gelhart met with Ryouma and was depressed when they were talking and complaining about how the Rozeria Kingdom is coming to end after existing for more than 500 year to me that more than enough proof that Gelhart plan doesn't seem to be involve in using Ladine to rule the country from the shadow. The reason is probably because he know or suspect that Ryouma is planning to overthrew Rozeria kingdom and establish his own country that would explain why Gelhart met with Ryouma during party at the capital because he know he doesn't stand a chance of beating Ryouma without Sudou help and want to know what Ryouma has to offer to him if he decide to surrender. Also let not forget the fact during Rozeria Kingdom first civil war it was Suduo who suggested to Gelhart to surrender and side with Lupis and Ryouma. The reason is because General Hodram took away his authority and Ryouma was a powerful enemy to deal with during the first civil war so for Suduo it will be ironic and difficult to try convince Gelhart to go to war against Ryouma or had Gelhart stop Ryouma from taking all of the territory.

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

I would have agree with you if Gelhart plan involve in taking as many territory under Ladine name and use Ladine as a puppet to rule from the shadow. However the problem is that in web novel Gelhart met with Ryouma and was depressed when they were talking and complaining about how the Rozeria Kingdom is coming to end after existing for more than 500 year to me that more than enough proof that Gelhart plan doesn't seem to be involve in using Ladine to rule the country from the shadow. The reason is probably because he know or suspect that Ryouma is planning to overthrew Rozeria kingdom and establish his own country that would explain why Gelhart met with Ryouma during party at the capital because he know he doesn't stand a chance of beating Ryouma without Sudou help and want to know what Ryouma has to offer to him if he decide to surrender. Also let not forget the fact during Rozeria Kingdom first civil war it was Suduo who suggested to Gelhart to surrender and side with Lupis and Ryouma. The reason is because General Hodram took away his authority and Ryouma was a powerful enemy to deal with during the first civil war so for Suduo it will be ironic and difficult to try convince Gelhart to go to war against Ryouma or had Gelhart stop Ryouma from taking all of the territory.

Sure it is hard to say the exact motive and goal he plans for now and the WN can always have differences.

But remember this, he started the first civil war claiming that Radine was a princess and the King's preferred heir. He planned from the get go to rule from the shadows. Meeting with Ryoma could be to determine to what extent his new kingdom to expand. Will it encompass all of Rhoadseria or just the northern half?

Half a kingdom to rule is still half more than Gelhart commanded before.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Snowbold

Sure it is hard to say the exact motive and goal he plans for now and the WN can always have differences.

But remember this, he started the first civil war claiming that Radine was a princess and the King's preferred heir. He planned from the get go to rule from the shadows. Meeting with Ryoma could be to determine to what extent his new kingdom to expand. Will it encompass all of Rhoadseria or just the northern half?

Half a kingdom to rule is still half more than Gelhart commanded before.

It is true that Gelhart from the beginning had planned to have Ladine as her puppet to rule the country from the shadow and Ladine had finally been recognized as royalty, but remember this in light novel it explain very clearly that Ladine was thinking about running away because she know she was fake and she fully aware that the punishment for impersonating as royalty is death. Also Gelhart was not very keen or enthusiastic about his plan in using Ladine as her puppet to rule the country from the shadow because he had some doubt about whether or not she is fake and would need to get rid of Ladine if he find out that she is impersonating as a royalty. So for Gelhart using Ladine for short term plan like starting civil war and defeating his enemy would be good idea, but it is bad idea if Gelhart is planning to used Ladine for long term plan to rule the country from the shadow because there is always a chances that Ladine being a fake can get exposed or manage to buy enough time for her to find a way to escape from Gelhart. As I said before for Gelhart he probably think it would be better and easier to just served Ryouma as his new king because there just too many issues with his plan in using Ladine as his puppet to rule the country from the shadow and he probably need to rely on Suduo for help in order for it to succeed.

[Snowbold]

That’s the other thing, is Sudou going to be helping him again? If so, then it probably is a ploy to weaken Rhoadseria to collapse.

But who knows…

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Snowbold

That’s the other thing, is Sudou going to be helping him again? If so, then it probably is a ploy to weaken Rhoadseria to collapse.

But who knows…

That is good question about whether or not Suduo is going to help Gelhart and judging from his personality I don't think he is going to help Gelhart with his plan to use Ladine as a puppet rule the country from the shadow because he doesn't want Gelhart to rule a peaceful country without any war and allow Rozeria Kingdom to recover their national strength. Also Suduo hate Ryouma and probably would not allow Gelhart to serve Ryouma as his new king instead he would try to do everything to have Ryouma and Gelhart go to war against each other just like he did with Lupis going to war against Ryouma which is probably the reason Ryouma held a party at the capital in order to the gather noble who hate or dislike Gelhart because Ryouma probably realize that a war against Gelhart might be unavoidable if Suduo refuse to give up and continue to have Ryouma and Gelhart pit against each other.

[stevenjai1]

Well putting aside what Gelhart and Suduo want or what their goal is, but one thing we can all agree on is that Ryouma will succeed in establish his own country and I'm wondering what sort of country is he going to name and my guess it might be something related called Wortenia since the author did name the story called Wortenia Senki in both light novel and web novel.

[Ratedhook522]

What’s real interesting to see is how this civil war is going to play out as this is only just the beginning. The queens faction underestimated Ryoma seeing him as just a upstart and have now suffered for it as the Duke rose up in rebellion again. Unfortunately the queen did manage to escape due to the pretty boy knight Chris holding Ryoma back but this only adds more thrill as now there are three factions competing for control of the country. But remember the duke and Ryoma met in secret so it wouldn’t be surprising if the Duke is actually on Ryomas side and plans to marry off Ladine to Ryoma. Also Ryoma as grasped that the Duke is actually somewhat of a good noble after conducting an investigation into him. Ryoma also has the backing of the kingdoms of the west as they see the queen as a weak ruler. With this battle being won Ryoma will have Wortenia and the territories of the 10 houses of the north to form his own country but I’m guessing that’s not good enough for him since as long as the queen is still alive she’ll continue to be an idiot and go after Ryoma out of fear. With the duke rising in rebellion again puts the kingdom back into a state of civil war, which in part may have been Ryomas plan as now this further weakens the queens faction since they have to deal with the duke and his Allies along with Ryoma who has devastated their army when in fact they outnumbered him severely. It’s like I said they just underestimated him thinking he was a lowly baron after being a commoner and they all greedily had their own agendas of wanting a take all the profit and materials from Wortenia for themselves. Sudou remains a mystery as he loves what Ryoma is doing but dosent want him being too overpowered hence why he hatched together that plot of forcing Elena to side with the queen if she wanted to see her daughter again. Sudou is a warmonger and what he wants is exactly what’s happening for the kingdom to spiral into all out civil war and although he loves what Ryoma is doing, he still dosent want Ryoma to have all the necessary chess peace’s on his side as it would spoil the fun and make Ryoma overpowered, which is why he really doesn’t care who wins in the civil war as long as he gets some fun out of it.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Ratedhook522

What’s real interesting to see is how this civil war is going to play out as this is only just the beginning. The queens faction underestimated Ryoma seeing him as just a upstart and have now suffered for it as the Duke rose up in rebellion again. Unfortunately the queen did manage to escape due to the pretty boy knight Chris holding Ryoma back but this only adds more thrill as now there are three factions competing for control of the country. But remember the duke and Ryoma met in secret so it wouldn’t be surprising if the Duke is actually on Ryomas side and plans to marry off Ladine to Ryoma. Also Ryoma as grasped that the Duke is actually somewhat of a good noble after conducting an investigation into him. Ryoma also has the backing of the kingdoms of the west as they see the queen as a weak ruler. With this battle being won Ryoma will have Wortenia and the territories of the 10 houses of the north to form his own country but I’m guessing that’s not good enough for him since as long as the queen is still alive she’ll continue to be an idiot and go after Ryoma out of fear. With the duke rising in rebellion again puts the kingdom back into a state of civil war, which in part may have been Ryomas plan as now this further weakens the queens faction since they have to deal with the duke and his Allies along with Ryoma who has devastated their army when in fact they outnumbered him severely. It’s like I said they just underestimated him thinking he was a lowly baron after being a commoner and they all greedily had their own agendas of wanting a take all the profit and materials from Wortenia for themselves. Sudou remains a mystery as he loves what Ryoma is doing but dosent want him being too overpowered hence why he hatched together that plot of forcing Elena to side with the queen if she wanted to see her daughter again. Sudou is a warmonger and what he wants is exactly what’s happening for the kingdom to spiral into all out civil war and although he loves what Ryoma is doing, he still dosent want Ryoma to have all the necessary chess peace’s on his side as it would spoil the fun and make Ryoma overpowered, which is why he really doesn’t care who wins in the civil war as long as he gets some fun out of it.

Yeah about what you said about the queen escaping when she was saved by Chris did the light novel book in volume 20 say anything that involve in where would Lupis would be running to or any safe place she plan to escape so the reason I ask about this is because I was wondering if it possible for there be a safe place that Lupis can escape in order for her to regroup with her troop that was scattered and continue her fight against Ryouma in this civil war?

[Ratedhook522]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

Yeah about what you said about the queen escaping when she was saved by Chris did the light novel book in volume 20 say anything that involve in where would Lupis would be running to or any safe place she plan to escape so the reason I ask about this is because I was wondering if it possible for there be a safe place that Lupis can escape in order for her to regroup with her troop that was scattered and continue her fight against Ryouma in this civil war?

Unfortunately no only that the Duke may have taken the capital while the queen was absent and that the Templar knights were helping in the escape from the battlefield. It wouldn’t be surprising if Lupis fled to the holy kingdom and continued to be a thorn in Ryomas side as she would now have the backing of those religious fanatics that could easily declare a holy war against Ryoma. Then again she could stay in the country and continue to fight.

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by Ratedhook522

Unfortunately no only that the Duke may have taken the capital while the queen was absent and that the Templar knights were helping in the escape from the battlefield. It wouldn’t be surprising if Lupis fled to the holy kingdom and continued to be a thorn in Ryomas side as she would now have the backing of those religious fanatics that could easily declare a holy war against Ryoma. Then again she could stay in the country and continue to fight.

I doubt it for several reasons:

• Rhoaderia is geographically and politically far from the Meneos Church's core of influence. Yes, they are powerful and the travel of a key figure to Rhoadseria became a major political event, but I doubt they can or would send more than what they have to aid Lupis. For one reason, they are still in a shadow war with the Organization and they are on the losing side. Spending resources and manpower on Rhoadseria is a waste.
• Rhoadseria is not considered a faithful follower of the Church as mentioned in the latest release of Wortenia on JNC's translations. The Bishop talks with Sudou and comments on the country negatively. Justifying the use of forces for nonbelievers will be a hard pull for the Church.
• The Church of Meneos still has their own cards to play without Lupis (Asuka) that are better played if Ryoma can divorce his conflict with Lupis from the Church.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Ratedhook522

Unfortunately no only that the Duke may have taken the capital while the queen was absent and that the Templar knights were helping in the escape from the battlefield. It wouldn’t be surprising if Lupis fled to the holy kingdom and continued to be a thorn in Ryomas side as she would now have the backing of those religious fanatics that could easily declare a holy war against Ryoma. Then again she could stay in the country and continue to fight.

I see alright thanks by the way what happened to Elena, Meltina, and Mikhail did they also try to escape together with Lupis while Chris was holding off Ryouma because I find it strange that Chris was one who was holding off Ryouma and not Meltina or Mikhail who I thought would be one holding off Ryouma unless Chris was also trying to save Elena as well then that would make a lot of sense?

[Ratedhook522]

Originally Posted by stevenjai1

I see alright thanks by the way what happened to Elena, Meltina, and Mikhail did they also try to escape together with Lupis while Chris was holding off Ryouma because I find it strange that Chris was one who was holding off Ryouma and not Meltina or Mikhail who I thought would be one holding off Ryouma unless Chris was also trying to save Elena as well then that would make a lot of sense?

Yes both meltina and Elena retreated with the queen both due to needing to protect her as they flee from the battlefield when the chaos ensued and because apparently Mikhail wasn’t there at the moment he was somewhere else having gotten the bad news of the Duke revolting again, I think he’s back in the capital guarding it to ensure it’s not occupied while the queen was away. Both Elena and Meltina needed to guard the queen when the army fell apart so Chris voluntarily stayed to stop Ryoma after the latter charged forward. Remember Elena is acting under Sudous orders so she knew from the start she was leading a paper tiger of an army that had nothing but a superiority in numbers, the nobles refused to listen to her orders hence why they couldn’t take the fort to begin with. After Ryoma devastated their supply lines and spread rumors to the army of the queen planning to abandon them, a already resentful populace that hates the nobility and distrust a weak queen who can’t even rule, questioned why they should die for them, hence why her army fell apart so quickly when Ryoma used his ninja to spread the rumor of the queen abandoning the battlefield to save herself. It’s actually funny how the nobility keep digging their own graves out of their selfish thinking.

[stevenjai1]

Originally Posted by Ratedhook522

Yes both meltina and Elena retreated with the queen both due to needing to protect her as they flee from the battlefield when the chaos ensued and because apparently Mikhail wasn’t there at the moment he was somewhere else having gotten the bad news of the Duke revolting again, I think he’s back in the capital guarding it to ensure it’s not occupied while the queen was away. Both Elena and Meltina needed to guard the queen when the army fell apart so Chris voluntarily stayed to stop Ryoma after the latter charged forward. Remember Elena is acting under Sudous orders so she knew from the start she was leading a paper tiger of an army that had nothing but a superiority in numbers, the nobles refused to listen to her orders hence why they couldn’t take the fort to begin with. After Ryoma devastated their supply lines and spread rumors to the army of the queen planning to abandon them, a already resentful populace that hates the nobility and distrust a weak queen who can’t even rule, questioned why they should die for them, hence why her army fell apart so quickly when Ryoma used his ninja to spread the rumor of the queen abandoning the battlefield to save herself. It’s actually funny how the nobility keep digging their own graves out of their selfish thinking.

Alright thanks for the update and info I really appreciate it.

[Snowbold]

Originally Posted by Ratedhook522

Yes both meltina and Elena retreated with the queen both due to needing to protect her as they flee from the battlefield when the chaos ensued and because apparently Mikhail wasn’t there at the moment he was somewhere else having gotten the bad news of the Duke revolting again, I think he’s back in the capital guarding it to ensure it’s not occupied while the queen was away. Both Elena and Meltina needed to guard the queen when the army fell apart so Chris voluntarily stayed to stop Ryoma after the latter charged forward. Remember Elena is acting under Sudous orders so she knew from the start she was leading a paper tiger of an army that had nothing but a superiority in numbers, the nobles refused to listen to her orders hence why they couldn’t take the fort to begin with. After Ryoma devastated their supply lines and spread rumors to the army of the queen planning to abandon them, a already resentful populace that hates the nobility and distrust a weak queen who can’t even rule, questioned why they should die for them, hence why her army fell apart so quickly when Ryoma used his ninja to spread the rumor of the queen abandoning the battlefield to save herself. It’s actually funny how the nobility keep digging their own graves out of their selfish thinking.

Agreed, the nobles of this world best reflect the nobles French and Tsarist Russia. So arrogant and condescending of the commoners that they are completely slaughtered when the pot boils over.