(L) Dungeon ni Deai o Motomeru no wa Machigatte Iru Darou ka (LN)

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

no offense, but dont put words in my mouth thank you. in what realm is saying "it also goes a bit deeper into aiz's side of things by showing her perspective of events that happen in the main novel" anywhere near equivalent to what you said? hell i even told avenger most of things in oratoria differ from the main plot so what are you talking about dont talk about not reading things when you clearly weren't reading what i said.

the first bold is actually true, but the reason why avenger should ask for opinions here as opposed to there is that he'll actually get one from a place dedicated to discussing the work at length and not simply giving a volume 5/5 for simplisitic reasons.

So, have you read it? Because that's the basic requirement to actually give an opinion. Reminder, he's asking about the book, not spoilers you read on internet or manga.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

So, have you read it? Because that's the basic requirement to actually give an opinion. Reminder, he's asking about the book, not spoilers you read on internet or manga.

would i be answering him if that weren't the case? if you're asking this to dodge the fact that you're previous claim was pulled from nowhere, you aren't doing a very good job of it. the fact that i already mentioned the ryuu gaiden should make it clear that i have ways of reading the spinoffs, but thank you for the pseudo concern

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

would i be answering him if that weren't the case? if you're asking this to dodge the fact that you're previous claim was pulled from nowhere, you aren't doing a very good job of it. the fact that i already mentioned the ryuu gaiden should make it clear that i have ways of reading the spinoffs, but thank you for the pseudo concern

Okay great! Can you explain how Riveria got her nickname and explain how her magic works then, because I literally do not believe you base on your past post history here. This part is pretty huge so it's unlikely you'll miss or simply "do not remember full details".

And as for your so call dodging.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

IMO if you're going to pick a spinoff to get into for danmachi, go for the ryuu gaiden. not only is it telling it's own story instead of retreading events(which is more up your alley), it has the benefit of a character who is far more capable of being compelling enough to carry a spinoff with Ryuu.

2 like kuroageha said earlier in regards to v10, using the subjective reviews of amazon japan is hardly a substanstial metric of anything. it's no where near being a big enough sample size to form conclusive perceptions and most of the reviews are no where near well formulated or specific. citing muh action is basically confirming that.

This is from you. First is objectively wrong. I don't see how anyone who even read a tiny of of Oratoria can claim there's any retreading. Second, you literally claim subjective reviews are not worth reading. I did not put a single word in your mouth.

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

Okay great! Can you explain how Riveria got her nickname and explain how her magic works then, because I literally do not believe you base on your past post history here. This part is pretty huge so it's unlikely you'll miss or simply "do not remember full details".

And as for your so call dodging.



This is from you. First is objectively wrong. I don't see how anyone who even read a tiny of of Oratoria can claim there's any retreading. Second, you literally claim subjective reviews are not worth reading. I did not put a single word in your mouth.

yes, the "i'm not dodging you are, so i'll give you another dodge to test you." assuming i answer correctly according to you, you will just respond with the "i read spoilers/wiki" defense. so i'll politely decline

retread =/= rehash just so you know. covering events that happen in the main novel such as i dont know aiz coming to bell's aid after eina requested her to intervene in volume 2, but from her perspective in oratoria 3 is retreading. now is that all oratoria is doing or all there is to oratoria or even the main part? of course not, i simply meant that compared to oratoria, ryuu gaiden is more focused on telling it's own story. perhaps the way i worded that quote came off that way to you, but if you had read this

oratoria provides more world building to further expand on concepts introduced by the main novel, and also follows the stories of the loki familia as they are on the frontlines of the dungeon kicking ass. it also goes a bit deeper into aiz's side of things by showing her perspective of events that happen in the main novel while having a mystery element to it

you would realize the full context.

as for subjective reviews, i specifically said from amazon. dont omit context to suit your argument.

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

yes, the "i'm not dodging, so i'll give you another dodge to test you. assuming i answer correctly according to you, you will just respond with the "i read spoilers/wiki" defense. so i'll politely decline

I'm 100% confident it's not on wiki in any language. You know why? It's because it's worded so convoluted that when the volume was released, 2ch spent 2 threads on it and still didn't come to a consensus on how it actually works. Every single wiki dodged putting it up there for that reason. A simple "it's not clear" would've been the best answer.

Anyway, at least now I know you're lying.

Originally Posted by kidstandout

as for subjective reviews, i specifically said from amazon. dont omit context to suit your argument.

You didn't even read the amazon reviews did you.

Either way, my fault for even bringing up this and derailing a perfectly good discussion thread. If mods are browsing and want to delete all my posts, I don't mind. I apologize to everyone else.

Carry on.

[quigonkenny]

No, go on. Go on. Don't mind us...

*continues munching popcorn*

[KnightShade]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

snip

whatever helps helps you sleep at night buddy. doesn't change the fact that you dodged the point again and are cherry picking to suit your own narrative. but hey according to you showing aiz helping bell escape from lily's monster trap in v2 from her perspective in oratoria 3 isn't retreading a past event so wtf do i know right?

you are right though, you did derail the thread so let's end it here before it devolves any further.

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by kidstandout

but bell is far from being at the top of the mountain compared to other adventurers he knows. he's more like the best of a mostly mediocre bunch

On that much we agree, which is why I’ve already said the same in my previous post:

two different series or game worlds, this comparison is apples to oranges

Apples and oranges was exactly my point, but since you brought up Kirito, I had to address it.

Power acquisition is vastly different between the two series.

One protagonist had to forge his own path to strength over the course of two years, while the other has been given never-before-seen advantages from the get go, not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does make it hard to build a case for Bell becoming another Kirito, not to mention the fact that one wishes to be a hero, while the other is an atypical antihero.

but you're idea of having him further etch past his mates is basically doing that. the further he get's past them, the closer he gets to aiz and the other level 6's or surpassing them entirely.

It’s been this way ever since the beginning of the series, so it is more than just my idea.

With Realis Phrase acting as an Excelia multiplier, there is no way for Hestia Familia to grow equally alongside Bell, except by recruiting new members, making joint expeditions with stronger, more numerous Familia; or by progressively taking the main series away from the Dungeon, as Omori himself revealed to be doing.

Extending the effects of Realis Phrase to his teammates is still a possibility, but it would be a cheap way to go about it, especially since it is a skill and not a development ability.

my point is that the farther he get's past his own party, the more they will hold him back in terms of getting to deeper floors. if his own familia serves as nothing but a handicap, what is the point of having them around? danmachi thrives on it's vast character set as evidenced by the two spinoffs, so why actively try to make bell even more of a special snowflake instead of surrounding him with a supporting cast that can compliment his talent?

That’s the great thing about Danmachi — character development is not solely dependent upon strength, as proven in volume 8...and don't even get me started on Lefiya.

While the characters may appear to be somewhat stereotypical and simplistic on the surface, they have surprisingly rich personalities and complex backstories, which makes each of them interesting and attaching in their own way.

Supporting characters are not relegated to the role of comic relief, since all of the cast shares that burden, no matter how strong or weak, and female characters have more to offer than the usual fan service and ship-baiting, although it is a considerable part of Danmachi's appeal.

the only answer i can give is that it's a way to keep the loki squad in the picture and avoid the dungeon in the main book as the author already uses oratoria to cover the deeper levels. but the thing is that hasn't exactly been well received as evidenced by the last 3-4 novels. the synopsis of the next volume seems like it could be heading back to the vibe of the first 5 novels (specifically volumes 1-3), as bell is back to being seen in mixed light by fellow adventurers

Here’s the dilemma: Hestia Familia is dragging Bell down, as evidenced by the fact that he has barely progressed in the Dungeon since volume 5, but he couldn’t survive without them either.

The key would be to recruit new members, but they couldn't be stronger than Bell, since he is the Familia’s ace and captain, although the threat of him being replaced as head of Hestia Familia, even if temporarily, would make for an interesting predicament, if only Bell had a trace of jealousy in him.

That being said, they can’t be much weaker than him either, otherwise they would quickly become obsolete, rare skills and abilities aside.

The solution is the same as it has always been, namely, joint ventures with trustworthy Familia, and recruting promising candidates whenever possible.

let's also not forget that this novel is appealing to the MMO niche, and the one thing they hate are overtly OP mc's which go against the grind. that's a bit more relevant than the opinions of bleech/shonen fans.

Blame Kuroageha for the Bleach reference, not me.

Also, there is a difference between being appealing to someone, and targeting a specific audience.

While the latter might have applied in the beginning of the series, this no longer seems to be the case, since it is constantly transitioning into deeper subject matters (e.g. prostitution, rape, immortal love, grief, etc.).

Originally Posted by kidstandout

best danmachi fanfic i've read! no seriously, that was pretty good.

Thank you, kind sir, although there's not much to compare it to.

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

Realis Phrase is not going away. He could start hating Ais and that just mean his bonus growth goes to zero, but as soon as he starts pinning for her again etc. etc.

I’ve never said that Realis Phrase was going away, only that its effects have diminished due to Aiz being virtually absent from the main series. It’s no coincidence that Bell’s progress has skyrocketed every time they had a meaningful interaction, followed shortly afterwards by a level-up on two occasions.

While I do agree Hestia Familia need fresh blood, I still think they’re already pretty OP and full of special snowflakes though.
Welf’s sword literally carried them like crazy in volume 9, and can continue to carry them until Floor 58 since his craft is better than Tsubaki’s.
Haruhime’s magic can be extended through potion chugging outside of cooldown time (recall Ishtar Familia literally carried her in a box to Floor 45 just for her magic).
Mikoto is a giant radar, which is always useful.
Lily’s a dead weight because her main ability’s more useful for PvP than PvE, but in dungeon it doesn’t matter as much for her role. Lefiya’s Level 3, and she’s still very active on equivalent of Level 6+ maps (okay in some ways she’s even more of a hax than Bell but yeah).
Point is, they all won’t be deadweight if they literally just have more people.

Once again, I agree with you, but some are more special than others, which is a fact recognized by the Gods themselves (and the Sauce), especially when said person can benefit from the others’ unique skills and abilities, while the opposite is not always true.

Bell could be equipped head to toe with Welf's best arms and armor, blessed with Uchidenokozuchi and with Lily's carefully planned strategies in mind, but the others will never be able to directly take advantage of Realis Phrase, Firebolt and Argonaut.

Only Luck has the potential to be shared, even if non-intentionally.

That being said, strength can only take you so far, and even if all of Hestia Familia suddenly reached level 6, they would still need to increase their numbers in order to delve deeper into the Dungeon.

Also, we had to endure a whole volume about the worth of supporters, so Lily can hardly be called a dead weight, especially since she acts not only as a porter, but as a strategist as well.

* * *

As for those still in doubt, let's start with the end in mind.

Omori said that the original plan was to end the series in twenty volumes, which means we have just reached the halfway point of Danmachi, leaving ten volumes to conclude the story, excluding the possibility of a fishtail ending.

Everything indicates that the One-Eyed Dragon will be the final boss of the series, meaning that an alliance between Hestia and Loki Familia is inevitable, due to it's significance to Aiz, not to mention the fact that it was hinted at in Dungeon Oratoria, which has been written by Bell's very own surrogate grandfather, Zeus.

In those remaining ten volumes, Bell has to obtain sufficient strength to be deemed worthy of such a party, which is only possible if he continues to level-up at a previously unprecedented rate.

With Bell's basic abilities currently ranging from E to B, it would only take him two and a half months to reach level 6, and one more for all his stats to be at S, which makes it impossible for Welf and Mikoto to level-up again before the end of the series, without outside intervention, that is, although Lily and Haruhime are due for an upgrade, if you ask me.

While some feel the need for supporting characters to catch up to the protagonist, doing so in this case would be disappointing, since there can only be one World's Fastest Rabbit.

[KnightShade]

^ i conccede your many points for now, i guess we'll just see how it goes

[Kunagisa]

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

I’ve never said that Realis Phrase was going away, only that its effects have diminished due to Aiz being virtually absent from the main series.

My main point here is that RP's just such so convenient, if Omori wants him to level it's pretty "easy" to write it in. I'm not too worried about his level right now. If Lefiya managed to be useful as a Level 3, Bell will too (I mean he did learn how to use Argonaut while moving, so that's just like Lefiya learning how to cast while moving). From volume 1-6 (and partly 7), Bell's substantial growth gave extremely few mental development. If you can solve everything by brute force, you tend to just not think as much. He not being able to level gives this volume new perspective on things, which is necessary in the long run.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

Bell could be equipped head to toe with Welf's best arms and armor, blessed with Uchidenokozuchi and with Lily's carefully planned strategies in mind, but the others will never be able to directly take advantage of Realis Phrase, Firebolt and Argonaut.

Also, we had to endure a whole volume about the worth of supporters, so Lily can hardly be called a dead weight, especially since she acts not only as a porter, but as a strategist as well.

They don't need more advantages though, even if they don't level now, they can progress to at least the third Monster Rex, if they have more people (pretty big if here). No matter how hard Lily tries, a level 1 supporter is just not going to cut it sooner or later, which is true for everyone but especially more so for her because she's the only one without any useful combat prowess in the party, which has been a huge source of low self-esteem in the later volumes.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

While some feel the need for supporting characters to catch up to the protagonist, doing so in this case would be disappointing, since there can only be one World's Fastest Rabbit.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

meaning that an alliance between Hestia and Loki Familia is inevitable

While I think alliances are likely, I think Bell actually has enough potential allies already though. Ouranos (Fels = best mage), Hephaestus (Tsubaki + Welf = best blacksmith), then there are the Xenos (who arguably level way easier than humans) now; the party members are there, they just need to join.

Though realistically, given how strong Zeus and Hera's Familia were back then, I don't think Hestia's Familia can reach that height no matter what by the end of the story. I feel it would be more like Freya and Loki together + Bell tossed in. Speaking of which, we still don't know what Zeus had to do back then that he had to abandon Bell.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

Omori said that the original plan was to end the series in twenty volumes, which means we have just reached the halfway point of Danmachi, leaving ten volumes to conclude the story, excluding the possibility of a fishtail ending.

Like you said, that's the original plan. I think even in the last interview, which is before Ryuu's gaiden, he said he'll take a few volumes longer, and even more so with Oratoria. At the current rate it's going, a few more volumes could mean anywhere from 2-4 more years for us, and a lot can change with that time.

---

Anyway, Oratoria 6's amazing cover, Haimuraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!



Seems like they're really putting those Diving abilities to good use.

[Kuroageha]

IMO, Haimura's best skills regarding action, fanservice and comedy went to Oratoria(and Maid Deka before it).

The ones he's been doing for Index, specifically, New Testament have been dull and lacking in effort and impact except for dew like the one color illustration that was on NT9.

[The One Above God]

Haimura's green eyed girls always look great .

[DerDoppelganger]

Originally Posted by Kunagisa

My main point here is that RP's just such so convenient, if Omori wants him to level it's pretty "easy" to write it in. I'm not too worried about his level right now. If Lefiya managed to be useful as a Level 3, Bell will too (I mean he did learn how to use Argonaut while moving, so that's just like Lefiya learning how to cast while moving).

Realis Phrase really is convenient, which is why Hunter would have been redundant as a development ability, since previously insurmountable monsters become irrelevant within a matter of days.

I guess I'm worried about Bell maintaining a rate of a level per month, although such progress is probably unsustainable, even with Realis Phrase. Speaking of which, where are we now, time-wise?

* * *

Also, I'm missing Bell's awkward interactions with Aiz.

Honestly, what's better than watching two emotionally retarded people trying their hardest to connect while hiding their mutual interest?

* * *

Talking about development abilities, I wonder what Bell's next choices will be.

Magic Resistance, Fist Strike and Spirit Healing sound like good candidates, but another rare or unique ability would be more than welcome.

From volume 1-6 (and partly 7), Bell's substantial growth gave extremely few mental development. If you can solve everything by brute force, you tend to just not think as much. He not being able to level gives this volume new perspective on things, which is necessary in the long run.

True

That's why it's always a good idea to practice with stronger, heavier opponents IRL, since athleticism can impair technical development if one relies excessively on it.

When I claimed on jCafe that Wiene had to die for Bell to experience personal growth through failure, loss and grief, since he still had a childlike mentality, an argument several pages long ensued.

Little did I know that Wiene would be resurrected almost immediately, but Bell still learned a valuable life lesson that will make him stronger in the long run (although he'll always remain an ingenue).

After all, growth through adversity is the surest path to success.

They don't need more advantages though, even if they don't level now, they can progress to at least the third Monster Rex, if they have more people (pretty big if here). No matter how hard Lily tries, a level 1 supporter is just not going to cut it sooner or later, which is true for everyone but especially more so for her because she's the only one without any useful combat prowess in the party, which has been a huge source of low self-esteem in the later volumes.

That is also my belief.

Even the strongest Familia are riddled with low and high level adventurers, but they still prove to be useful under the right circumstances, that is, when they're provided with a safety net by first and second class adventurers, as Bell as been doing with his teammates since the beginning, and will continue to do so until the end of the series.

As for Lily, I want her and Haruhime to reach level 2, since their Magic stats are closing in on D, but Welf and Mikoto only just leveled-up, so they're going to have to learn to be patient, and make do with overpowered equipment and Uchidenokozuchi in the meantime.

While I think alliances are likely, I think Bell actually has enough potential allies already though. Ouranos (Fels = best mage), Hephaestus (Tsubaki + Welf = best blacksmith), then there are the Xenos (who arguably level way easier than humans) now; the party members are there, they just need to join.

Though realistically, given how strong Zeus and Hera's Familia were back then, I don't think Hestia's Familia can reach that height no matter what by the end of the story. I feel it would be more like Freya and Loki together + Bell tossed in. Speaking of which, we still don't know what Zeus had to do back then that he had to abandon Bell.

Unless Omori pulls a One Piece, Hestia Familia won't even have the time to reach Freya and Loki's level, let alone Zeus and Hera's.

Hestia had her chance to increase her ranks back in volume 7, but Mikoto blew it.

That being said, as long as Ryu joins before the end of the series, I'll be more than happy.

Like you said, that's the original plan. I think even in the last interview, which is before Ryuu's gaiden, he said he'll take a few volumes longer, and even more so with Oratoria. At the current rate it's going, a few more volumes could mean anywhere from 2-4 more years for us, and a lot can change with that time.

That's wonderful news, especially since there are still so many loose ends and potential interactions that we have yet to see.

Anyway, Oratoria 6's amazing cover, Haimuraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!



Seems like they're really putting those Diving abilities to good use.

And their seaweed-kinis as well.

Gotta love those not-so-identical twins.

[Tri-ring]

Looks as if we'll have to wait till October to see the next volume according to Amazon.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4797388137

[Kunagisa]

Spoiler for BookWalker's Date Bonus Story:

Ryuu bumped into Bell after he went book shopping. Bell was acting suspicious and Ryuu thought he's hiding porn ("dirty books that the male deities love"). Turns out Bell's just embarrassed he's still collecting/buying heroic legend books for children at his age. Ryuu helps him carry the books because his bag was torn. After some cheesy lines, they begin going from stores to stores to search for more books. On the way, they bumped into an old lady, who happened to be Ryuu's friend and thought she's on a date, to which Ryuu denied vehemently in a deadpanned sort of way of course.

After finding most of the books that Bell was looking for, they stopped at the center square and begin to rest/chat. Ryuu asked him to tell more about the stories, to which Bell happily complied. While listening, Ryuu felt a sense of serenity and blurted out to herself that she likes Bell in story-telling mode while smiling. Bell caught her murmur and did a double take while blushing. Ryuu realizing what she said also started blushing and clarified that her words were toward his innocent, childish demeanor, causing Bell to be a bit sullen for being called a child. Ryuu's still blushing wildly and her heart beating rapidly, she opened her lips and closed them repeatedly [trying to find the right words to say].

Finally, she decided to be honest with herself, which is that she likes the brilliance in his eyes when he narrates those stories (...). While looking straight ahead, Ryuu said, "Kranell, I wasn't lying, " while Bell looks up upon hearing her speak, "therefore ... do continue to tell me more about your stories," —「because I want to see the brilliance in your eyes again」Ryuu thinks to herself. Bell is finally cheered up.

Not expecting something amazing since it's just a bonus story. Very cheesy but I dig it.

There was an extremely brief (literally mentioned by name only) of The Legend of St. George (used a somewhat uncommon Japanese version of his name), which is somewhat interesting to me (more dragons!) mainly because I was reminded of a conversation on 4chan that The Black Dragon is "The Devil" etc. (I know next to nothing about religious stories). Another random thing is Zeus' favorite story was the Argonauts.

Anyway, we're just missing the bonus story from the Limited Edition for volume 10, then everything's pretty much covered. I'm sure the wikia guy will cover this (if he hasn't done so already), so there won't be need for me to post that here. Now the wait for Oratoria 6.

Originally Posted by DerDoppelganger

That being said, as long as Ryu joins before the end of the series, I'll be more than happy.

Spoiler for 10:

Well Mia wants to kick her out anyway, since Ryuu can't cook, is stoic, and skips shifts due to her JUSTICE duties.

[Crizs]

Sorry for interrumpting the discussion, but, does anyone have the volume 5+ translated in english? I would reeeeally apreciate it D

[KnightShade]

^cant ask for that here, mods no likey

[vancejb123]

Hey guys. Sorry to ask this so late but, anyone got the synopsis or a link to for vol 10? I saw a link a couple pages back but it seems it is already gone so anyone who could do this thanks for that. (also i know there are bits of vol 10 here that give me a good jist of it but, i want the synopsis with as much info as possible so i can have a more clear cut opinion.)

[jpwong]

Originally Posted by Crizs

Sorry for interrumpting the discussion, but, does anyone have the volume 5+ translated in english? I would reeeeally apreciate it D

Sure, you can buy it officially through one of the links here electronically, volume 6 will be out in august and vol 7 in december.

http://www.hachettebookgroup.com/tit...316394192/?yen

[quigonkenny]

Looking at the pics over the last few pages, and adding in the girls who aren't represented by those pics, I'm thinking that Bell might just have the highest quality harem in the history of the genre. Seriously, by any metric or another, most of these girls would be Best Girl candidates in most other series...

Too bad for him that he isn't really in a harem story...