Fate/Grand Order (Mobile RPG)

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Rizare

No, there has been no Mahoyo collab. Beside Kara no Kyoukai, there has been no collab event with another Type-Moon work.

Not even Tsukihime? I know Arcueid is in the game, did they introduce her out of nowhere?

[CCPDarkraiRules]

She was released for the 7th Anniversary of the game.

[Rizare]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Not even Tsukihime? I know Arcueid is in the game, did they introduce her out of nowhere?

Yes. She was introduced as a guest character from Tsukihime.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by XFire

Spoiler for Columbus:

I didn't say anything about its morality, I said Columbus didn't care about it.

Spoiler for Spoiler:

If you want to trade it out for a completely boring interpretation that fails to explain their survival against Sefar, removes the principle conflict of 5.1, removes the conflict between Zeus and Wodime, and invalidates Zeus' eventual plan. Which is to say, no, you can't do that at all without fundamentally altering the story. For that matter, the stuff you mentioned exists and we've already seen it, and it can't do the shit we see the Machine Gods and their nanomachines do.

"A medieval knight sword"? Are you talking about Excalibur? Because Zeus and the Greek Lostbelt (or Greek in PHH for that matter) have absolutely zero connection to Excalibur. Arturia is the one that killed Sefar in PHH because the planet keeps her on call specifically to yeet her at stuff like that. In the Lostbelt Zeus beat back Sefar by combining with the other Machine Gods and just straight up winning the fight. IIRC Nasu stated later Sefar survived but later got dunked by Excalibur anyway somewhere else.

That has nothing to do with Jason's wounds? She hid them with a Mystic Code, it didn't involve the Machine Gods at all.

If you mean "He didn't think of this till he started expanding the Fate universe" then sure. And? He also hadn't thought of Lostbelts, or Beasts, or Grand Servants, or about half of Arturia's expanded role in the lore, or Jason, or Sefar, or [continue ad infinitum]. He expanded the universe, and its more interesting for it.

How exactly does the Avalon Lostbelt "show" that? Avalon takes place in a timeline where Excalibur wasn't made as the key deviation, which means Greece died because Zeus didn't do the combining mecha thing. As for the "intertwining", if you mean the Romans then the Roman gods are literally just the Greek ones straight-up in the Nasuverse. Also in PHH they lost their Machine bodies and got the more human ones that we see Artemis in normally.

For that matter, the Greek Gods aren't the only alien deities. The Mayan Pantheon is based off an alien super-virus that rode down on a meteor. Amaterasu is somehow born from the Sun instead of the planet (which is why she's so fuck off powerful). Tiamat is literally a living space ark that creates and repaints ecosystems, and her goddess persona is based on a forgotten being who created the idea of Earth Goddesses. Also the entirety of the Foreigner class and the Outer Gods.

It's almost like you're using an arbitrary sci-fi scale that doesn't really work with Nasu's world-building in which the Planet is actually a sentient giga-wizard. For that matter, nearly all of the power of the Lostbelt is concentrated in Zeus, and he's explicitly both limiting and withholding his power for most of the story.

Also Angels already exist in the Nasuverse.

Spoiler for Losbelts 4+ & Columbus:

Ad Columbus:
And how does that make the fact, or him any better? It doesn't which is my point.


Ad Excalibur:
The story itself says Zeus and the Holy sword, there is no word about who wields it, so I gotta ask for your source there.

Ad Avalon:
It shows by the power of contrast between proper story telling and "let's add mechas to it, to make it sound even better!".
Avalon is still a good story, and still goes with regular old earth bound magic. Magic that is btw also present in greece. Replacing fairies with Aliens wouldn't have made the story any better or worse.

Ad Angels and ridiculous scales:

We've seen like one really low ranked one with Corday, unless of course the priestess is a captured one.

To understand why the whole mecha thing made the Civilization scale go nuts, you have to look at Losbelt 5.5 too.
Douman specifically tells us that a certain Christian demon taught him, a human heroic spirit, how to mess with the tree to his liking, and the freaking, Avatar of the regional sun goddess. Moreover, the actual sun goddess herself didn't bother taking over her avatar and fight back.

And no, Tamamo's reluctance towards her tails and Morph skill isn't there yet. That's something that's something she has yet to develop. (in 100-200 years from 5.5)

And yes, the Olympians place on that scale should surprise you. They should have the technology to literally steal Amaterasu's life force (Helium), yet the story still declared all of them combined to be weaker than her.
Not only is that a bit inconsistent, but it also ups how strong he will have to make angels, and demons, when one can teach Douman(According to himself btw) how to easily mess with a universe.

You'd basically have to put the Egyptian gods above even Amaterasu and O-Marie, and then top it to a point where all of them can be beat at together.
We also know the egyptian gods exist btw, as Anubis apparently appeared in requiem.

And note, several of those countries have actually met and even clashed even in the Antique.

The scale Nasu put them up also raises the question how Demons would profit from helping Douman.

And something I forgot about the Olympians... Not even all of them are Machines, which makes it even weirder. Putting the three Gorgons aside, there is also Astraea and her weird logic about the Goethia case being balanced while the Losbelts are not, when the latter clearly stole a PHH's place.,

So yes, considering all the above, I honestly think that making the Olympians Mechas did not make the story any better, and more exciting at all, and you could have literally replaced everything with magic, without harming the storytelling.

Oh wait... there is one Mecha thing you couldn't replace there... Golden Huge Bear.

Edit:

Spoiler for Addendum:

Also since you mentioned Qui earlier too.
Must I remind you that the story suggest that he surpassed all the divine spirits, and that his Torus around the planet can actually block off Sephar.

Originally Posted by Kanon

You guys warned me about Agartha, but I didn't think it was going to be THAT bad. The beginning was super boring

Spoiler for Agartha:

Astolfo and D'Eon were pretty much both there because they're traps, but they really don't bounce well off each other. A very far cry from Salter and Jalter in Shinjuku. Nevermind Shota Fergus who was insufferable.

The story was horrible, and I didn't like any of the new servants except maybe Chinese Loli. Colombus and Scheherazade's identities were super easy to guess and their portrayal was... not good. I can get portraying Colombus as a bad guy, but here he was literally evil incarnate. Went way too far. A little nuance would have been nice. Scheherazade's personality and designs were both awful.

Well, at least that's behind me now.

Since Christmas is coming, I won't start the next Singularity yet.

And I'm grateful you guys are using spoiler tags but maybe label them? I got spoiled pretty hard about Olympus. I guess a certain scene with Megalos makes more sense now...

Guess that's my bad since I started not naming the tags at some point. Sorry :/

As for Sherezade... Wait until you see her NP.

[XFire]

Never mind, we're still going

Same subject though

Spoiler for Losbelts & Columbus:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Columbus:
And how does that make the fact, or him any better? It doesn't which is my point.

I didn't say it did? You're the only one who mentioned morality at all, I just said it was a weird thing to make him fixate on.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Excalibur:
The story itself says Zeus and the Holy sword, there is no word about who wields it, so I gotta ask for your source there.

?????????

What are you talking about? The Holy Sword is never mentioned in Lostbelt 5. Zeus explicitly just beat the pants off Sefar head on.

In PHH he didn't do the combining mecha thing and they all "died" (lost their machine bodies) and then after Sefar wanders around trashing everyone Arturia shows up and yeets her ass.

And we know that because its the whole reason Arturia is in Extella (where we see Sefar get yeeted at all) and she recognizes Sefar (though not Altera).

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Avalon:
It shows by the power of contrast between proper story telling and "let's add mechas to it, to make it sound even better!".
Avalon is still a good story, and still goes with regular old earth bound magic. Magic that is btw also present in greece. Replacing fairies with Aliens wouldn't have made the story any better or worse.

This is a total non-sequitur. "There is a good story without mechas" has no bearing on whether or not a story with mecha's is also good. That's a nonsensical statement that implies adding mechas or aliens to a story inherently makes them worse.

Also Avalon hinges on the Alien Sefar being the entire reason for Excalibur's creation, it destroyed the world and left nothing but the land made out of Sir Fluffington, and Morgan literally turns it into an actual alien world with the intention of escaping to the real one.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Angels and ridiculous scales:

We've seen like one really low ranked one with Corday, unless of course the priestess is a captured one.

They also show up in Case Files.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

To understand why the whole mecha thing made the Civilization scale go nuts, you have to look at Losbelt 5.5 too.
Douman specifically tells us that a certain Christian demon taught him, a human heroic spirit, how to mess with the tree to his liking, and the freaking, Avatar of the regional sun goddess. Moreover, the actual sun goddess herself didn't bother taking over her avatar and fight back.

And no, Tamamo's reluctance towards her tails and Morph skill isn't there yet. That's something that's something she has yet to develop. (in 100-200 years from 5.5)

Uh, did you miss Shimousa or did you just forget that "Satan" is just what Douman calls the Alien God?

And no, Tamamo and Amaterasu always hated each other. Her being a Divided Spirit or bunrei doesn't mean she "was" Amaterasu during her life or anything, and their mutual dislike of each other is explicitly due to fundamental differences in who they are.

Also none of this has anything to do with the scale you keep talking about.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And yes, the Olympians place on that scale should surprise you. They should have the technology to literally steal Amaterasu's life force (Helium), yet the story still declared all of them combined to be weaker than her.
Not only is that a bit inconsistent, but it also ups how strong he will have to make angels, and demons, when one can teach Douman(According to himself btw) how to easily mess with a universe.

No, it didn't. Their combined form defeated Sefar. Sefar obliterated Amaterasu so hard it traumatized Tamamo. It not only explicitly was not a fight (In Tama's words the pantheon was just "slaughtered") Altera doesn't even remember Amaterasu. Meanwhile a single Machine God, Ares, is the only being besides Excalibur and its wielder that gave Sefar an actual fight.

Again, "Satan" was in reference to the Alien God. Also for what its worth we've seen a True Demon before: CCC Kiara. The one explicitly stronger than her Beast form which has, and I quote, "a universe inside her stomach". So, uh, they're already there?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You'd basically have to put the Egyptian gods above even Amaterasu and O-Marie, and then top it to a point where all of them can be beat at together.
We also know the egyptian gods exist btw, as Anubis apparently appeared in requiem.

And then suddenly Egyptian gods. Why exactly? They weren't part of this discussion until just now, why would they be above Ammy and U-Olga?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And note, several of those countries have actually met and even clashed even in the Antique.

The Antique? What?

Which countries are you talking about, and what conflicts specifically?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The scale Nasu put them up also raises the question how Demons would profit from helping Douman.

Again, just the Alien God if you mean "Satan"

Also for what its worth, True Demons are born from human desires and are basically living monkey paws.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And something I forgot about the Olympians... Not even all of them are Machines, which makes it even weirder. Putting the three Gorgons aside, there is also Astraea and her weird logic about the Goethia case being balanced while the Losbelts are not, when the latter clearly stole a PHH's place.

The only Machine Gods are the Twelve Olympians, the rest of the Greek Pantheon are just normal Gods who happened to live in the place the Olympians landed. After humans began worshipping the Twelve they started acting as Gods and the other Divine Spirits joined in.

Also Astrea is stupid because Nasu wants the Lostbelt situation to be more grey than it actually is. As far as I can tell its supposed to be that the Lostbelts have as much right to the world as PHH despite having stolen PHH's place. Which is dumb. But that's all besides the point here.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

So yes, considering all the above, I honestly think that making the Olympians Mechas did not make the story any better, and more exciting at all, and you could have literally replaced everything with magic, without harming the storytelling.

Oh wait... there is one Mecha thing you couldn't replace there... Golden Huge Bear.

And explaining how they dealt with Sefar, and why their stuff can do things in-universe magic equivalents explicitly can't, and the five years worth of foreshadowing, and having Wodime's conflict with Zeus, and having Zeus' plan at all.

Lol.

The only thing here is "I don't like the mecha's". And you are free not to. But pretending they're an objectively bad story beat when the chapters concerning them remain some of the highest rated and most popular chapters in all of FGO is just silly.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Spoiler for Addendum:

Also since you mentioned Qui earlier too.
Must I remind you that the story suggest that he surpassed all the divine spirits, and that his Torus around the planet can actually block off Sephar.

Spoiler for spoiler:

Him surpassing "all Divine Spirits" doesn't really mean anything besides "he's better than Ammy" since she's the strongest Divine Spirit we know of. It also in no way involves the Machine Gods since they aren't Divine Spirits till post-Sefar. And its not unsubstantiated since again he helps Chaldea beat a galaxy powered Tree of Emptiness that's been roided out by a Terminal of the Planet to death with apparently his bare hands (and whatever mercury he decided to make).

Also him holding off Sefar was never mentioned. Sefar would have been way before his time.

[XFire]

As a separate thing, @AC-Phoneix

Spoiler for spoiler - scale:

If it's specifically the scale of what Zeus/the Machine Gods can do that's throwing you off, I'll point out that they aren't remotely the strongest things we've seen thus far.

Extra/CCC/Extella went even further into the cosmic stuff with the True Demon and Bodhivistta stuff, Kama just literally creates a pocket universe, and the Outer Gods go without saying. The thing that specifically makes Zeus so different is that he's largely free of the Planet's influence due to still being alien in nature.

If Kama tried to merge with the actual physical universe or Kiara tried to swallow the planet or so on, the World would bitchslap them for it because it has authority over them. So even though they can do those things in an environment without that interference, they can't do it in reality because there is a bigger fish that's a stickler for the rules.

Zeus can, because the planet doesn't have authority over him. So even though the scale of his power is only such that he's comparable to Arjuna-Alter, the nature of his power means Chaldea can't use the rules to get around it like with Arjuna-Alter (or....basically every other cosmic threat they fight)

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I think I might do the same: saving up SQs but using up tickets. Because I really don't think I can stop rolling until Castoria's banner

Finished Shinjuku and it really was great from start to finish. Really fun character interactions, and the big twists at the end were very nice.
Gameplay wise, the regular nodes were easier than in previous singularities but a couple boss fights were very hard. Especially the Avenger... until I discovered a NP5 summer BB in my friends list and utterly wrecked him with her. Made me realize I really should try to get a servant from the two classes I'm missing (Avenger and Moon Cancer).

As a side note, don't you think they made a mistake by making Salter a 4* Saber instead of a 5* Avenger? Or they could have made her Lancer Alter version an Avenger.

I think that approach has worked out pretty well for me the past year or so. Got a few fun ticket pulls (Dioscuri and Ibuki) that I didn't expect while still having enough quartz to pull my main targets for this past year (Castoria, Summer Illya, etc). Nice to add while also being sure I can get some of my main targets for next year.

Shinjuku was definitely one of my favourite EoR stories. Only second to Seraph. Which technically was an event, but definitely fit as much as Shinjuku or the others. I agree with that Avenger being a really tough fight even when I was going through.

I'm sure others replied, but yeah Saber Alter ends up in that spot by being a year 1 servant. I do think being an Avenger would have fit, but since they didn't have that class in mind or in creation when the game launched she just missed out. I think Lancer Alter fell into the same spot since she came out before the first Avenger in Dantes. But at least making Lancer Alter an Avenger would have given her more presence than she ended up getting.

[AC-Phoenix]

Spoiler for Losbelts & Columbus:

Originally Posted by XFire

?????????

What are you talking about? The Holy Sword is never mentioned in Lostbelt 5. Zeus explicitly just beat the pants off Sefar head on.

In PHH he didn't do the combining mecha thing and they all "died" (lost their machine bodies) and then after Sefar wanders around trashing everyone Arturia shows up and yeets her ass.

And we know that because its the whole reason Arturia is in Extella (where we see Sefar get yeeted at all) and she recognizes Sefar (though not Altera).

Again, Artoria isn't mentioned by anyone in that connection, only the sword.
Her ability to recognize Sefar also doesn't necessarily stem from her having been the one to take the shot, but could as well come from the fact that she got summoned at all. Arthoria and Excalibur also have a rather weird connection where it could be the sword who actually remembers Sephar.


I do give you that she fulfills the requirement of not having been alive back then though, so there is a possibility.

Originally Posted by XFire

Also Avalon hinges on the Alien Sefar being the entire reason for Excalibur's creation, it destroyed the world and left nothing but the land made out of Sir Fluffington, and Morgan literally turns it into an actual alien world with the intention of escaping to the real one.

Avalon hinges on the greek pantheon having lost without Excalibur being created, not on who used it, or whether they were an alien A.I.

Originally Posted by XFire

They also show up in Case Files.

"They are also mentioned/elaborated on in Case Files."
I fixed that for you.

Originally Posted by XFire

Uh, did you miss Shimousa or did you just forget that "Satan" is just what Douman calls the Alien God?

No I did not.
But it should make you wonder why Douman sometimes just says "The foreign God" and then suddenly adds "Satan" to it. Also, as far as I remember he referred to Lucifer in Heian-Kyo, while it was "Satan" in Shimosa.
Really strange mistake for Nasu to make, hence it's probably not a mistake at all.

And while Nasu isn't a mystery author, it should be pointed out here, that word-plays like this are used really often in Japanese mysteries.
If you think about it, it's not even wrong, because either of them would be foreign from Douman's Shinto perspective.

The alien god showing him how to adapt the tree is also 100% unbeneficial to her.

I do at least doubt that Douman is just afraid of Kotomine taking over Rasputin and whacking his ass. Sorry, but the point that he only adds names after "foreign" when neither the Olga, Koyans or Rasputin are around is highly suspicious.

Originally Posted by XFire

And no, Tamamo and Amaterasu always hated each other. Her being a Divided Spirit or bunrei doesn't mean she "was" Amaterasu during her life or anything, and their mutual dislike of each other is explicitly due to fundamental differences in who they are.

Which is on one hand a totally separate thing from being a nine tail herself, and on the other rather pointless to mention. At the end of the day she is still an avatar, and nine tailed at the time we meet her in Heian Kyo.

The reason you see her as a three tails there is, aside from Lasenge not bothering artists to add six more tails for a 4 scenes, is that three tails is the zenith of the connection the player and Tamamo can share.
You can actually gather as much from Tamamo's words when she says that her illusions are perfect and that only Seimei should be able to see through them, before going on that she must have some kind of future connection to Fujimaru.

The other reason we know she has to be nine tails is that she has already been a nine-tails in China, and going by Tamamo's very own words, 200 years wouldn't be enough to go from 3 to 9 again

Their relationship is also of peripheral meaning, neither of them did jackshit against Douman, despite that before Doji showed up, both of them had the best chances.

I'm also waiting for r/record to decide whether the players speak to in CCC was actually Amaterasu, rather than Beast Tamamo, since I've seen a translation of the scene that leaves a lot of room for it being just nine-tails tamamo.

Originally Posted by XFire

Also none of this has anything to do with the scale you keep talking about.

The scale I'm referring to literally measures alien civilisations and their ability to control (including harvesting) energy.

Originally Posted by XFire

No, it didn't. Their combined form defeated Sefar. Sefar obliterated Amaterasu so hard it traumatized Tamamo. It not only explicitly was not a fight (In Tama's words the pantheon was just "slaughtered") Altera doesn't even remember Amaterasu. Meanwhile a single Machine God, Ares, is the only being besides Excalibur and its wielder that gave Sefar an actual fight.

We also learn that Amaterasu and Sephar were a bad matchup for some reasons unknown, and that Amaterasu is actually the stronger one.

For all we know after that <perhaps Amaterasu, perhaps Tamamo> scene, Amaterasu might have just Gilgameshed it, and not taken it seriously until it was too late.

Originally Posted by XFire

And then suddenly Egyptian gods. Why exactly? They weren't part of this discussion until just now, why would they be above Ammy and U-Olga?

I put them in there because they become relevant when you have to scale in angels. Horus was a literal sun god, and god fought all uhm I don't know how many of them. Was it 12 or more? (without counting Pharaoes)

Also from heron out, the power scale is bound to go upwards, otherwise it'd be just a "pfft we've faced worse". All the time.

Originally Posted by XFire

The Antique? What?

My bad, it was during roman times that the myth of the greek gods having temporarily fled to egypt came up. - Nevertheless it came up though.

Nevertheless, one of the Egyptian gods got cut to pieces and distributed all over the world, so, I think it was Isis, having met gods of other Pantheons would be inevitable.

Originally Posted by XFire

Which countries are you talking about, and what conflicts specifically?

Egypt and Rome for starters, there was also the exodus, where it's being made rather clear that the Egyptian gods either lost, or abandoned their sinking ship.

Originally Posted by XFire

Also Astrea is stupid because Nasu wants the Lostbelt situation to be more grey than it actually is. As far as I can tell its supposed to be that the Lostbelts have as much right to the world as PHH despite having stolen PHH's place. Which is dumb. But that's all besides the point here.

Well one thing we most certainly agree on

Originally Posted by XFire

And explaining how they dealt with Sefar, and why their stuff can do things in-universe magic equivalents explicitly can't, and the five years worth of foreshadowing, and having Wodime's conflict with Zeus, and having Zeus' plan at all.

Putting aside that the foreshadowing would obviously be replaced to, believe me it can. We also had a previous version of what happened to Atlantis, where the counter force was responsible for it's sinking.

Originally Posted by XFire

This is a total non-sequitur. "There is a good story without mechas" has no bearing on whether or not a story with mecha's is also good. That's a nonsensical statement that implies adding mechas or aliens to a story inherently makes them worse.

Originally Posted by XFire

The only thing here is "I don't like the mecha's". And you are free not to. But pretending they're an objectively bad story beat when the chapters concerning them remain some of the highest rated and most popular chapters in all of FGO is just silly.

I never said either of those. I said it didn't make the story better, and that removing that aspect and putting in magic in, like it still was in StayNight, wouldn't make it any worse. Two very different things.

What I do think is that they overuse them, but that already started before any foreshadowing began. Which is also why it appears that someone on the writing team, seems to think that it does seem to think it improves stories.

Originally Posted by XFire

Him surpassing "all Divine Spirits" doesn't really mean anything besides "he's better than Ammy" since she's the strongest Divine Spirit we know of. It also in no way involves the Machine Gods since they aren't Divine Spirits till post-Sefar. And its not unsubstantiated since again he helps Chaldea beat a galaxy powered Tree of Emptiness that's been roided out by a Terminal of the Planet to death with apparently his bare hands (and whatever mercury he decided to make).

Also him holding off Sefar was never mentioned. Sefar would have been way before his time.

He specifically mentioned threats from outer space.

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I'm sure others replied, but yeah Saber Alter ends up in that spot by being a year 1 servant. I do think being an Avenger would have fit, but since they didn't have that class in mind or in creation when the game launched she just missed out. I think Lancer Alter fell into the same spot since she came out before the first Avenger in Dantes. But at least making Lancer Alter an Avenger would have given her more presence than she ended up getting.

I kinda assumed Jalter was the first Avenger since she shows up in the first Singularity. Dantes being the first and introduced after London certainly explains why the Artoria Alters didn't make the cut.

[XFire]

Spoiler for Losbelts & Columbus:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Again, Artoria isn't mentioned by anyone in that connection, only the sword.
Her ability to recognize Sefar also doesn't necessarily stem from her having been the one to take the shot, but could as well come from the fact that she got summoned at all. Arthoria and Excalibur also have a rather weird connection where it could be the sword who actually remembers Sephar.

Arturia is the only person to ever actually wield Excalibur. Like we have its entire timeline from moment of creation to its return to the planet.

And the Holy Sword is never mentioned at all in Lostbelt 5 because it had nothing to do with Zeus' fight. It was only brought up in an interview with Nasu later, and then specifically as a separate occurrence.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I do give you that she fulfills the requirement of not having been alive back then though, so there is a possibility.

Again, we have the entire timeline of PHH's Exa's existence.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Avalon hinges on the Greek pantheon having lost without Excalibur being created, not on who used it, or whether they were an alien A.I.

It has nothing to do with the Greek Pantheon outside the fact that they didn't use the combined mecha mode. The Greeks have zilch to do with Exa at all, they just happened to be the only thing outside of it that could stop Sefar.

The point of what you're responding to was that an alien (Sefar) was central to the story of Avalon.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

"They are also mentioned/elaborated on in Case Files."
I fixed that for you.

No, you didn't

The spell being used in the story they get mentioned was an angel, that was the point. They aren't "beings", they're more like rituals.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

No I did not.
But it should make you wonder why Douman sometimes just says "The foreign God" and then suddenly adds "Satan" to it. Also, as far as I remember he referred to Lucifer in Heian-Kyo, while it was "Satan" in Shimosa.
Really strange mistake for Nasu to make, hence it's probably not a mistake at all.

Yeah, no. That's a translation....not error so much as difficulty. Douman exclusively refers to the Foreign God as "ルチフェロなりしサタン, Luchifero-narishi Satan", or Satan who Art as Lucifero, or as the God of a Distant Star.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And while Nasu isn't a mystery author, it should be pointed out here, that word-plays like this are used really often in Japanese mysteries.
If you think about it, it's not even wrong, because either of them would be foreign from Douman's Shinto perspective.

Except he literally spells out that he calls the Foreign God that because it amuses him.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The alien god showing him how to adapt the tree is also 100% unbeneficial to her.

Uh.....no? Aside from the fact that she made a deal with him and that knowledge was implied to be part of it, his job was to help grow and oversee the Tree's. He knows how they work and can recognize when one has been modified.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I do at least doubt that Douman is just afraid of Kotomine taking over Rasputin and whacking his ass. Sorry, but the point that he only adds names after "foreign" when neither the Olga, Koyans or Rasputin are around is highly suspicious.

What are you talking about? He only calls it Luchifero-narishi Satan in Shimousa and Heain-Kyo because he's being Douman about it, all the other times he refers to it as the God of a Distant Star.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Which is on one hand a totally separate thing from being a nine tail herself, and on the other rather pointless to mention. At the end of the day she is still an avatar, and nine tailed at the time we meet her in Heian Kyo.

She's not an "avatar", she's a bunrei or Divided Spirit. Amaterasu can't just take over her like a terminal.

And her being nine-tailed doesn't mean anything? We already know Amaterasu is only on par with a Beast, which Douman was. Even if her full power was available and she felt like using it, she'd be risking her life trying to fight Douman.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The reason you see her as a three tails there is, aside from Lasenge not bothering artists to add six more tails for a 4 scenes, is that three tails is the zenith of the connection the player and Tamamo can share.
You can actually gather as much from Tamamo's words when she says that her illusions are perfect and that only Seimei should be able to see through them, before going on that she must have some kind of future connection to Fujimaru.

Again, this is....irrelevant? Her having nine-tails doesn't change that she hates Amaterasu and rejects their connection, nor does it change the fact that her entering the fray would only have endangered her life

And Tama doesn't care enough about humans to risk that.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The other reason we know she has to be nine tails is that she has already been a nine-tails in China, and going by Tamamo's very own words, 200 years wouldn't be enough to go from 3 to 9 again

Which again doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Their relationship is also of peripheral meaning, neither of them did jackshit against Douman, despite that before Doji showed up, both of them had the best chances.

Amaterasu never had an opportunity because she doesn't have a way to manifest, and Tama didn't care.

For that matter Ammy probably didn't care either, she's practically a Beast herself.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I'm also waiting for r/record to decide whether the players speak to in CCC was actually Amaterasu, rather than Beast Tamamo, since I've seen a translation of the scene that leaves a lot of room for it being just nine-tails tamamo.

Uh.....no? Like the scene in question calls herself Amaterasu, she's referred to as such by Nasu and the material books, and she refers to Tama as a separate entity who she hates.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The scale I'm referring to literally measures alien civilisations and their ability to control (including harvesting) energy.

I'm aware, and your scale fails to take into account the planet this civilization is bound to being a giga-wizard who doesn't like it when people break its rules.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

We also learn that Amaterasu and Sephar were a bad matchup for some reasons unknown, and that Amaterasu is actually the stronger one.

We know exactly why they were a bad match-up, which is that Sefar eats anything related to civilization as fuel and Ammy can't bypass it. Neither can the Machine Gods combined form or Exa, but they have so much raw power it doesn't matter.

We also know that Ares couldn't bypass it either but still put up an actual fight despite being weaker than Ammy, so its literally just "Ammy couldn't do shit"

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

For all we know after that <perhaps Amaterasu, perhaps Tamamo> scene, Amaterasu might have just Gilgameshed it, and not taken it seriously until it was too late.

It's definitely Amaterasu and your weird head-canon is throwing you into realms unknown

And Tama describes the fight for Hakuno, with it explicitly being a one-sided massacre the Japanese Pantheon was utterly powerless against.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I put them in there because they become relevant when you have to scale in angels. Horus was a literal sun god, and god fought all uhm I don't know how many of them. Was it 12 or more? (without counting Pharaohs)

????????????

I don't recall it being stated even in Prototype that the Egyptian God fought the Abrahamic God.

And we already know that Big G God in the Nasuverse overshadows literally everything else (and is implied to be the Root at some points) because His holy artifacts like the Arc just bypass everyone elses Divinity.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Also from heron out, the power scale is bound to go upwards, otherwise it'd be just a "pfft we've faced worse". All the time.

I don't know how to break it to you, but Morgan and Oberon are a step down from the power of Zeus. For that matter U-Olga is a step down in power from Goetia.

However both represent a higher threat because of the situations they cause to occur despite lacking the same level of raw power.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

My bad, it was during roman times that the myth of the greek gods having temporarily fled to egypt came up. - Nevertheless it came up though.

They would have been Divine Spirits at that point, and still not sure how its relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Nevertheless, one of the Egyptian gods got cut to pieces and distributed all over the world, so, I think it was Isis, having met gods of other Pantheons would be inevitable.

.......and? The roman period was during the time when the Greeks were already Divine Spirits, it wouldn't have mattered.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Egypt and Rome for starters, there was also the exodus, where it's being made rather clear that the Egyptian gods either lost, or abandoned their sinking ship.

Which, again, would have been at a time when the Roman Gods were no different from normal ones.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Well one thing we most certainly agree on

Cool

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Putting aside that the foreshadowing would obviously be replaced to, believe me it can. We also had a previous version of what happened to Atlantis, where the counter force was responsible for it's sinking.

So yeah, a total rewrite of not only the story but also of all the foreshadowing over five years of leading up to it. Kek.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I never said either of those. I said it didn't make the story better, and that removing that aspect and putting in magic in, like it still was in StayNight, wouldn't make it any worse. Two very different things.

You called it a worse story beat than the rape-a-palloza that was Agartha. That's literally how this discussion started

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

What I do think is that they overuse them, but that already started before any foreshadowing began. Which is also why it appears that someone on the writing team, seems to think that it does seem to think it improves stories.

Not sure how you get "overused" out of a single pantheon that loses the attribute in PHH where basically all of Fate outside FGO part 2 takes place, but for the record its explicitly Nasu who wrote this specific twist.

And doing so lead to two of the most beloved stories in the franchise.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

He specifically mentioned threats from outer space.

Yeah. Meteors. Like the one he throws at Chaldea. Sefar is never mentioned or even alluded to.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I kinda assumed Jalter was the first Avenger since she shows up in the first Singularity. Dantes being the first and introduced after London certainly explains why the Artoria Alters didn't make the cut.

Technically the first Avenger (as in, first instance of the class in Fate) is Angry Mango from Fate/Hollow Ataraxia. He was going to be the first in FGO but its part of his thing that he's comically underpowered and Nasu didn't want to ruin the impression of the class.

Of course Dante was (at first) underpowered himself, which lead to Jalter being the Queen of Unga Bunga for like two years

[XFire]

Also we're starting to clog the thread with our spoiler discussion so I think I'm done now

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I kinda assumed Jalter was the first Avenger since she shows up in the first Singularity. Dantes being the first and introduced after London certainly explains why the Artoria Alters didn't make the cut.

From what I recall, Jalter was never meant to be playable. Its just she turned out so popular that the devs have to retool her as the tsundere weaboo chuunibyou (the two parts showing in her swimsuit zerker version) everyone loves, and not Jeanne's palette swap from Orleans.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Sheba

From what I recall, Jalter was never meant to be playable. Its just she turned out so popular that the devs have to retool her as the tsundere weaboo chuunibyou (the two parts showing in her swimsuit zerker version) everyone loves, and not Jeanne's palette swap from Orleans.

On the contrary, she was always meant to be playable. She was originally supposed to be a welfare Ruler class for the first Christmas event, but her popularity was so great they decided to remake her into a five-star Avenger.

[Sheba]

So I remember it wrong.

Back on the game I am going through the final stretch of Babylon, in NA, and man Ibuki hit. Like. A. Truck. Even on Rider mobs.

[grecefar]

story of the game:

so there is the martha ruler banner, I wanted her for a while now and I'll say aww YOLO and throw all my savings and tickets on her, nothing. It broke my heart and I was f* this game and didn't play for a couple of days.

I log in and there was 3SQ reward and put in my last 30SQ. "If she doesn't come I swear I'm going to delete this game and focus on azur lane."

This games loves me, I swear it hears you.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by XFire

Spoiler for Losbelts & Columbus:

Arturia is the only person to ever actually wield Excalibur. Like we have its entire timeline from moment of creation to its return to the planet.

And the Holy Sword is never mentioned at all in Lostbelt 5 because it had nothing to do with Zeus' fight. It was only brought up in an interview with Nasu later, and then specifically as a separate occurrence.



Again, we have the entire timeline of PHH's Exa's existence.



It has nothing to do with the Greek Pantheon outside the fact that they didn't use the combined mecha mode. The Greeks have zilch to do with Exa at all, they just happened to be the only thing outside of it that could stop Sefar.

The point of what you're responding to was that an alien (Sefar) was central to the story of Avalon.



No, you didn't

The spell being used in the story they get mentioned was an angel, that was the point. They aren't "beings", they're more like rituals.



Yeah, no. That's a translation....not error so much as difficulty. Douman exclusively refers to the Foreign God as "ルチフェロなりしサタン, Luchifero-narishi Satan", or Satan who Art as Lucifero, or as the God of a Distant Star.



Except he literally spells out that he calls the Foreign God that because it amuses him.



Uh.....no? Aside from the fact that she made a deal with him and that knowledge was implied to be part of it, his job was to help grow and oversee the Tree's. He knows how they work and can recognize when one has been modified.



What are you talking about? He only calls it Luchifero-narishi Satan in Shimousa and Heain-Kyo because he's being Douman about it, all the other times he refers to it as the God of a Distant Star.



She's not an "avatar", she's a bunrei or Divided Spirit. Amaterasu can't just take over her like a terminal.

And her being nine-tailed doesn't mean anything? We already know Amaterasu is only on par with a Beast, which Douman was. Even if her full power was available and she felt like using it, she'd be risking her life trying to fight Douman.



Again, this is....irrelevant? Her having nine-tails doesn't change that she hates Amaterasu and rejects their connection, nor does it change the fact that her entering the fray would only have endangered her life

And Tama doesn't care enough about humans to risk that.



Which again doesn't matter.



Amaterasu never had an opportunity because she doesn't have a way to manifest, and Tama didn't care.

For that matter Ammy probably didn't care either, she's practically a Beast herself.



Uh.....no? Like the scene in question calls herself Amaterasu, she's referred to as such by Nasu and the material books, and she refers to Tama as a separate entity who she hates.



I'm aware, and your scale fails to take into account the planet this civilization is bound to being a giga-wizard who doesn't like it when people break its rules.



We know exactly why they were a bad match-up, which is that Sefar eats anything related to civilization as fuel and Ammy can't bypass it. Neither can the Machine Gods combined form or Exa, but they have so much raw power it doesn't matter.

We also know that Ares couldn't bypass it either but still put up an actual fight despite being weaker than Ammy, so its literally just "Ammy couldn't do shit"



It's definitely Amaterasu and your weird head-canon is throwing you into realms unknown

And Tama describes the fight for Hakuno, with it explicitly being a one-sided massacre the Japanese Pantheon was utterly powerless against.



????????????

I don't recall it being stated even in Prototype that the Egyptian God fought the Abrahamic God.

And we already know that Big G God in the Nasuverse overshadows literally everything else (and is implied to be the Root at some points) because His holy artifacts like the Arc just bypass everyone elses Divinity.



I don't know how to break it to you, but Morgan and Oberon are a step down from the power of Zeus. For that matter U-Olga is a step down in power from Goetia.

However both represent a higher threat because of the situations they cause to occur despite lacking the same level of raw power.



They would have been Divine Spirits at that point, and still not sure how its relevant to this discussion.



.......and? The roman period was during the time when the Greeks were already Divine Spirits, it wouldn't have mattered.



Which, again, would have been at a time when the Roman Gods were no different from normal ones.



Cool



So yeah, a total rewrite of not only the story but also of all the foreshadowing over five years of leading up to it. Kek.



You called it a worse story beat than the rape-a-palloza that was Agartha. That's literally how this discussion started



Not sure how you get "overused" out of a single pantheon that loses the attribute in PHH where basically all of Fate outside FGO part 2 takes place, but for the record its explicitly Nasu who wrote this specific twist.

And doing so lead to two of the most beloved stories in the franchise.



Yeah. Meteors. Like the one he throws at Chaldea. Sefar is never mentioned or even alluded to.

Last one on this from me too

Spoiler for Final thoughts LB 5.5.:

Ad God vs Egyptian gods
Nowhere, it's as left open.
Funnily enough, it's also left open in exodus. God does say that he will fight all of them if he has too, but it's never stated whether he even had to, or if they just turned tail.

Ad Tamamo:
Yesm, you are right, the only one she cares about at that stage is herself. Which is even more of a reason to risk her life to help take that thing down, as she had at least a very good idea what it does.
In any event there was no running for her.

Scenario one where the tree

Ad references to the Foreign god:
I can live with inconsistent translation as explanation

Ad Amaterasu:
Nasu has a tendency to retcon stuff quite often, even with just some stuff he says during interviews.
And while the English in the translation I've seen wasn't that good, the name being inaudible to the character sounded legit.

Me rolling for Ruler MARTHA:
Me: "Hmm one or two tickets can't hurt... But I could get vitra... Nah not gonna happen."

First ticket.
Vitra.

Me: "Oh well at least she is out of the pool for me now..."

*tries again with a 10 Roll now*

Vitra but no Martha.

The Dragon has once again trolled me... Now I actually have to look up if she is worth levelling...

And yes, I'm seriously just semi-happy with the result of those two rolls.

Meanwhile, I find the christmas event really taxing... I keep failing to get the bells for the quests from the rollls. And somehow either my tablet or the app keep freezing up.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Last one on this from me too

Spoiler for Final thoughts LB 5.5.:

Ad God vs Egyptian gods
Nowhere, it's as left open.
Funnily enough, it's also left open in exodus. God does say that he will fight all of them if he has too, but it's never stated whether he even had to, or if they just turned tail.

Ad Tamamo:
Yesm, you are right, the only one she cares about at that stage is herself. Which is even more of a reason to risk her life to help take that thing down, as she had at least a very good idea what it does.
In any event there was no running for her.

Scenario one where the tree

Ad references to the Foreign god:
I can live with inconsistent translation as explanation

Ad Amaterasu:
Nasu has a tendency to retcon stuff quite often, even with just some stuff he says during interviews.
And while the English in the translation I've seen wasn't that good, the name being inaudible to the character sounded legit.

Me rolling for Ruler MARTHA:
Me: "Hmm one or two tickets can't hurt... But I could get vitra... Nah not gonna happen."

First ticket.
Vitra.

Me: "Oh well at least she is out of the pool for me now..."

*tries again with a 10 Roll now*

Vitra but no Martha.

The Dragon has once again trolled me... Now I actually have to look up if she is worth levelling...

And yes, I'm seriously just semi-happy with the result of those two rolls.

One minor thing and we can drop the rest....

Spoiler for fluffy tail:

Tamamo deliberately entered the Lostbelt Singularity to see what was happening of her own voltion. She says as much the last time we see her, and if it is 9-tail Tama she could have exited just as easily

[XFire]

On a separate note I am loving the story for this event. Lots of fun interactions between characters that don't get enough love.

Still hoping for an eventual event focused on Geroge though.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Last one on this from me too

Meanwhile, I find the christmas event really taxing... I keep failing to get the bells for the quests from the rollls.

Can't say I've had that problem. The match quests alone mean I barely needed the rolls until we hit the quests that were good for farming.