(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[Kreion]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

I feel you. Shipping kinda killed the series for me in the end.

I don't think there's much shipping in Monogatari though, if anything the girl arguments come down to something more akin to waifu arguments...which you're going to get with any series with a lot of girls.

If you're talking about shipping then that's part of the point of Kaiki and Hitagi's relationship - to show highlight how stupid it is to care about past relationships in most cases. There's that line about Hitagi falling in love like it was the first time every time, that pretty much sums up any Kaiki/Hitagi/Araragi confusion...any past feelings on Hitagi's part are irrelevant.

I do agree that it's a shame that the more interesting parts of the series are less discussed than they should be, but that happens with lots of popular series. Another perfect example is Tokyo Ghoul - the ratio of people who want to talk about the symbology of flowers in the series, vs those who just want to ship guys together if a very poor ration.

[molassus]

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

Amazing, all these wonderful character developments, values and lessons shown over the whole series.

Yet, the only thing people seemed to talk about over at Myanimelist is whether or not Hitagi and Kaiki had something going on....

xD, I remember reading that thread a while back.. Had me in stitches.

There were a lot going on in the series and they were more worried about their waifu's cheating. Dunno why people were so hellbent with that topic, whereas Gahara-san herself said the reasons in Nise.

[theshade1]

Hi guys, sorry for coming in after a while, but I just skimmed through the thread and was wondering if what my impressions of what happened to each character in the end is right??

Spoiler for ::

Araragi and Hitagi go to the same college and are cohabiting.
Hanekawa is travelling the world.
Kanbaru's still in high school.
Shinobu is grown up-ish and hangs around??
Nadeko lives elsewhere, wanting to be a mangaka and tsukihi's with her.
Karen's just there-abouts... I guess
Yotsuba... (no idea)
Meme, Daiki etc are all alive and well.

Also did they ever address the issue of Araragi's immortality and how it would affect his relationship moving forward or is it just left as a mayfly december romance?

Originally Posted by Kreion

I don't think there's much shipping in Monogatari though, if anything the girl arguments come down to something more akin to waifu arguments...which you're going to get with any series with a lot of girls.

If you're talking about shipping then that's part of the point of Kaiki and Hitagi's relationship - to show highlight how stupid it is to care about past relationships in most cases. There's that line about Hitagi falling in love like it was the first time every time, that pretty much sums up any Kaiki/Hitagi/Araragi confusion...any past feelings on Hitagi's part are irrelevant.

I do agree that it's a shame that the more interesting parts of the series are less discussed than they should be, but that happens with lots of popular series. Another perfect example is Tokyo Ghoul - the ratio of people who want to talk about the symbology of flowers in the series, vs those who just want to ship guys together if a very poor ration.

Yh, like a lot of tropes Nisio subverted in this series that's one of them. Imo, any shipping pretty much became pointless after bake and even more so after neko shiro, where it was fairly obvious that Araragi and Hitagi would end up a couple. So yh, didn't see much shipping.

For some reason anime-watcher/manga-readers, take exes way too seriously and weirdly. Like they get irrationally pissed if a character had a previous relationship... like wtf why?

On TG, there is absolutely very little shipping, unless one specifically looks for it in tumblr. Most discussions are ppl looking for deeper meanings and numbers, even if there aren't any.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by theshade1

Hi guys, sorry for coming in after a while, but I just skimmed through the thread and was wondering if what my impressions of what happened to each character in the end is right??

Yotsuba... (no idea)

Yotsuba got her own manga, by the author of Azumanga Daioh.

Yh, like a lot of tropes Nisio subverted in this series that's one of them. Imo, any shipping pretty much became pointless after bake and even more so after neko shiro, where it was fairly obvious that Araragi and Hitagi would end up a couple. So yh, didn't see much shipping.

Usually shipping is the result of the audience trying to anticipate how the main character's romance will progress in a story. The character the protagonist couples with is officially announced at the ending, so until then there is leeway for all sort of interpretations. After that point the story has ended, so the audience of the work dwindles down and shipping kind of dies with it after a while.

Monogatari was likely intended to end early with Tsukihi Phoenix, so the author had to officialize the Araragi x Senjougahara couple prematurely, and he never went back. The fact that this ship sailed though meant only that all other possible rival ships (which were kinda weak to begin with) disappeared, not that the AraGahara fandom itself disappeared (in fact it will last until Monogatari ends). Which is exactly why the whole Kaiki x Senjougahara matter has been so overblown. It's an issue based on shipping.

Shipping for the most part relies on projective identification. The girl a certain fandom likes must also be the girl chosen by the main character, whether or not the audience identifies with the actual main character himself. There is a lot of idealization and devaluation going on, which also turns into besti girl / worst girl arguments.

[theshade1]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Yotsuba got her own manga, by the author of Azumanga Daioh.
Usually shipping is the result of the audience trying to anticipate how the main character's romance will progress in a story. The character the protagonist couples with is officially announced at the ending, so until then there is leeway for all sort of interpretations. After that point the story has ended, so the audience of the work dwindles down and shipping kind of dies with it after a while.

Monogatari was likely intended to end early with Tsukihi Phoenix, so the author had to officialize the Araragi x Senjougahara couple prematurely, and he never went back. The fact that this ship sailed though meant only that all other possible rival ships (which were kinda weak to begin with) disappeared, not that the AraGahara fandom itself disappeared (in fact it will last until Monogatari ends). Which is exactly why the whole Kaiki x Senjougahara matter has been so overblown. It's an issue based on shipping.

Shipping for the most part relies on projective identification. The girl a certain fandom likes must also be the girl chosen by the main character, whether or not the audience identifies with the actual main character himself. There is a lot of idealization and devaluation going on, which also turns into besti girl / worst girl arguments.

...Yeah guess my knowledge of yotsuGI was much less than I thought.

So yh, did they actually address the mayfly romance trope or is it left to reader's imagination?

In regards to shipping, so that's what u meant. Normally when I say it or hear from someone else that shipping killed a series, its usually the case where all plot and character development are basically ignored, and majority of the heated discussion is by two sets of people on x-girl vs y-girl.

So I guess, technically its the fandom that negatively affected the series rather than shipping. But I think, unless its a serious seinen manga or something, most of the fandom are obsessed with the main/end girl being "pure" and this series wasn't much of an exception.
Though it could've been worse- like that one manga where people burned copies because they speculated that the main girl had an ex-bf.

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by theshade1

...Yeah guess my knowledge of yotsuGI was much less than I thought.

So yh, did they actually address the mayfly romance trope or is it left to reader's imagination?

I'm having difficulty with your abbreviation. What exactly did "yh" refers to, and why did you capitalized "GI" in yotsugi?

Btw, at the end of Owari, AraragiGahara is still the official ship, Nisio never went back and crushes any established relationship between the characters.

[theshade1]

Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa

I'm having difficulty with your abbreviation. What exactly did "yh" refers to, and why did you capitalized "GI" in yotsugi?

Btw, at the end of Owari, AraragiGahara is still the official ship, Nisio never went back and crushes any established relationship between the characters.

'Yh'= 'yeah', and the 'gi' is capitalised cuz, as pointed out, in my last comment I mistakenly typed Yotsuba (main character in another manga called Yotsubato) instead of yotsugi and was just correcting my mistake lol.

The question I asked wasn't really to do with shipping. A 'mayfly romance' is a trope where there is a romance between 2 characters with very different life expectancies, Eg- Spice and Wolf. And I was curious if they addressed this in the later volumes of the Monogatari series.

The other stuff was mainly just discussing the shipping culture and fandom as a whole.

[Darknemo2000]

Can I ask one thing? Does Hitagi ever grows her hair long again?

May sound silly but I thought that she looked really awful in short hair, so much that I stopped reading series all together as the main heroine looks became a big meh for me. I know that some of her hair grows back but I wonder if her hair remains short in general or does it get to the old length.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

I feel you. Shipping kinda killed the series for me in the end.

I think it has more to do with it than just shipping honestly. From the way I look at it, people seem to have fallen out of the fandom. That's all. That started for example when I saw the people who claimed to like Hanekawa sound just like her deriders, and I thought, "yeah, this fandom is waning a bit, oh well". That, and if you asked a majority of the people who were fans, they treat it as a harem(despite the series lampshading and outright deconstructing the elements of that genre), so shipping and best girl arguments happen naturally. It doesn't help that the universe mechanics are so vague (because lol Nisio having solid and not metaphorical mechanics), lore discussions are hard to downright impossible, and because of the reasons I just said, character discussions contain ire, dismissiveness, and mudslinging. Because most people watched the show for one character or a relationship(particularly Araragi/Senjougahara), and when that started to lose spotlight, they left, or stayed and continued to sour on the series. No one wants to be part of a sour fandom.

But my personal policy is never to let other other people ruin something I like, so I never got that. The Fate fandom derides my favorite story and character for years, but I still like it. Why let someone else dictate what you love? But that's me.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

That, and if you asked a majority of the people who were fans, they treat it as a harem(despite the series lampshading and outright deconstructing the elements of that genre),

Monogatari is a harem. The only thing is that it was supposed to end early with Tsukihi Phoenix, and that's why Araragi and Senjougahara managed to become an official couple so soon.

Instead of harem you could say it is a "high female character density ratio" type of story, but the difference between that and a harem is trivial.

But my personal policy is never to let other other people ruin something I like, so I never got that. The Fate fandom derides my favorite story and character for years, but I still like it. Why let someone else dictate what you love? But that's me.

Well, the thing is that Monogatari has also gone downhill when the love triangle was resolved. Hanekawa was the character that carried on the story. Nisio started introducing new characters like Ougi and Gaen, but they don't have on Araragi the same impact that Hanekawa had. I think that Monogatari should have proceeded from a love triangle to another love triangle. Now everything feels like a side-adventure.

[TonyC1994]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Monogatari is a harem. The only thing is that it was supposed to end early with Tsukihi Phoenix, and that's why Araragi and Senjougahara managed to become an official couple so soon.

Instead of harem you could say it is a "high female character density ratio" type of story, but the difference between that and a harem is trivial.
Well, the thing is that Monogatari has also gone downhill when the love triangle was resolved. Hanekawa was the character that carried on the story. Nisio started introducing new characters like Ougi and Gaen, but they don't have on Araragi the same impact that Hanekawa had. I think that Monogatari should have proceeded from a love triangle to another love triangle. Now everything feels like a side-adventure.

"..proceeded from a love triangle to another love triangle."

What?! Heck no. The series progression is fine as it is. While romance was an element of the story, it was in no way the most important part of it. New characters were introduced because they were integral in moving the plot forward, Ougi for example is essential to the story for Araragi's character development. (Once you find out who he/she is)

Its sounds like to me, the reason you think the story went downhill was because it didn't become your standard Shoujo story.
Would you also like to provide a source to your claim that the series was suppose to have ended with Tsukihi Phoenix, because it sounds like you're pulling that out of your ass.

Seriously, moving from one love triangle to another..... what a terrible idea.

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

"..proceeded from a love triangle to another love triangle."

What?! Heck no. The series progression is fine as it is. While romance was an element of the story, it was in no way the most important part of it. New characters were introduced because they were integral in moving the plot forward, Ougi for example is essential to the story for Araragi's character development. (Once you find out who he/she is)

Its sounds like to me, the reason you think the story went downhill was because it didn't become your standard Shoujo story.
Would you also like to provide a source to your claim that the series was suppose to have ended with Tsukihi Phoenix, because it sounds like you're pulling that out of your ass.

Seriously, moving from one love triangle to another..... what a terrible idea.

While I don't really agree on Shikijin's idea on the love triangle, some points he mentioned made sense beside that very point.

It didn't really turned into exact downhill, rather to me, the overall third act has ups and downs from Tsuki until ZokuOwari.
And yeah, Nisio himself told the reader that Nisemonogatari was his initial plan on ending the series, heck he didn't even thought of wanting to publish both of those Nise chapters at first. He admit this himself in Karen Bee's afterword section, if you can read moon, feel free to check on that.

One more thing; Both Hanekawa, Ougi and Gaen serve as trump cards at the end. They are similarly important to resolve the whole thing.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

What?! Heck no. The series progression is fine as it is. While romance was an element of the story, it was in no way the most important part of it.

Life is what happens while you do something else. The life of Araragi is his love life, all his supernatural adventures are just diversions. When all is said and done Araragi will go back to Senjougahara, that's the story. The rest is a monster-of-the-week plot.

New characters were introduced because they were integral in moving the plot forward, Ougi for example is essential to the story for Araragi's character development. (Once you find out who he/she is)

As one who has read all the books (and even translated some), I was underwhelmed. The plot was building him up to be a great villain, but he doesn't have what it takes to be a villain.

The point of a villain is his interactions with the main character. Now between Araragi and Ougi everything feels awkward. Nisio ruined everything.

Its sounds like to me, the reason you think the story went downhill was because it didn't become your standard Shoujo story.

If you equate love story with shoujo then you don't understand much of storytelling. Next you will tell me that Monogatari is a shounen battle manga, yes?

Would you also like to provide a source to your claim that the series was suppose to have ended with Tsukihi Phoenix, because it sounds like you're pulling that out of your ass.

What part of 最終話　つきひフェニックス you don't understand?

Seriously, moving from one love triangle to another..... what a terrible idea.

Otoko wa Tsurai yo was based on love triangles. It started with a tv series. It spawned 48 movies, a special, and even an anime. The main character tries to help a girl but he doesn't get her in the end, which is the Hanekawa role. 48 movies.

[TonyC1994]

Originally Posted by Shikijin;5510506[QUOTE

]Life is what happens while you do something else. The life of Araragi is his love life, all his supernatural adventures are just diversions. When all is said and done Araragi will go back to Senjougahara, that's the story. The rest is a monster-of-the-week plot.

.....?
No, the life of Araragi is NOT his love life. Romance and his dealings with the oddities are BOTH part of his life. Yes, at the end of the day he will go back to Senjougahara, what's your point? We already know the end point of this series, he ends up going to a University together with her, we find that out in Hanamonogatari which takes place furthest in the future even if it wasn't the last novel. This puts more emphasis on the "journey" then the actual destination. All his "supernatural adventures" are not just diversions.

As one who has read all the books (and even translated some), I was underwhelmed. The plot was building him up to be a great villain, but he doesn't have what it takes to be a villain.

The point of a villain is his interactions with the main character. Now between Araragi and Ougi everything feels awkward. Nisio ruined everything.

Honestly, other than Sengoku there really hasn't been an actual "villain" in the series. There has been antagonists, like Kaiki for example. An antagonist role is to oppose the protagonist, which I thought Ougi's character did a great job in. I don't know what you mean by everything feeling awkward... Did you feel annoyed because you were expecting some epic clash between these two or something?

If you equate love story with shoujo then you don't understand much of storytelling. Next you will tell me that Monogatari is a shounen battle manga, yes?

I don't see what the problem is with equating Shoujo with romance, a huge majority of Shoujo manga has to do with romance after all (most but not all). I was merely making a jab at you for wanting to add more love triangles to the story which is a general cliche of Shoujo mangas.

What part of 最終話　つきひフェニックス you don't understand?

I'll actually apologize for that part, sorry

Otoko wa Tsurai yo was based on love triangles. It started with a tv series. It spawned 48 movies, a special, and even an anime. The main character tries to help a girl but he doesn't get her in the end, which is the Hanekawa role. 48 movies.

Also, just to be clear, I am in no way trying to insult you, so I am sorry if I happened to offend you in anyway. I tend to come off a bit heated in debates.
I think my main issue here is that you're trying to make Monogatari sound like its just solely a romance series when I honestly feel like its not.

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

The point of a villain is his interactions with the main character. Now between Araragi and Ougi everything feels awkward. Nisio ruined everything.

My 2cents;
Through up the third act, I only have ZokuOwari and Tsuki left unfinished. I agree that Nisio made the awkwardness between Araragi and Ougi so obvious in the novel, but to me, Nisio hasn't really ruined everything though. I could foresee the whole thing would resolve in very anticlimactic manner after I read Owari 1 and 2. I think it is pretty intentional though it may not satisfy some readers.

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

Honestly, other than Sengoku there really hasn't been an actual "villain" in the series. There has been antagonists, like Kaiki for example. An antagonist role is to oppose the protagonist, which I thought Ougi's character did a great job in. I don't know what you mean by everything feeling awkward... Did you feel annoyed because you were expecting some epic clash between these two or something?

Let me intrude as this seems fun to me.
No, there has not been any antagonist inside this series. Sengoku, Kaiki, Seishirou and the three guys from Kizu were just diversions to create some actual plot device.
Ougi, in anyway, is only a pseudo-antagonist, similarly Gaen and Tadazuru. They only serve as the triggers to spark the plot. Monogatari is just a story of a teenage boy undergoing puberty that suddenly fucked his life up after meeting Kissshot and Meme.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by TonyC1994

No, the life of Araragi is NOT his love life. Romance and his dealings with the oddities are BOTH part of his life. Yes, at the end of the day he will go back to Senjougahara, what's your point?

Oddities come and go, so if Araragi meet a new oddity, chance is that the oddity will disappear by the end of the book. What doesn't carry from an installment to another is obviously not what carries on the series. Oddities are devices used to churn out mystery plots, which can be interesting in themselves, but there was more to the series, a further reason to keep reading it.

The first season of novel had as an overarching plot the love story between Araragi and Senjougahara. In fact it was a love triangle with Hanekawa, but Nisio with a neat use of nonlinear narrative presented the Hanekawa angle only later. The nearly-love story with Hanekawa was a mystery within a mystery, referenced everywhere but never fully explained until Neko Black. While Araragi ending up with Senjougahara was established very early in the plot, things could have gone elsewise, and this gave some tension to the story. I felt very satisfied by how this part was handled. The ending of Neko Black was both tragic and happy.

Since the first season had resolved the character of Hanekawa, the second and third season had to introduce a new charater, Ougi, who was used as an overarching villain. For a while it was funny to read, but then I found the resolution anticlimatic. I suppose a new love triangle could have been more fun to read, although that's just a suggestion, and I don't know how well it could be implemented.

Honestly, other than Sengoku there really hasn't been an actual "villain" in the series. There has been antagonists, like Kaiki for example. An antagonist role is to oppose the protagonist, which I thought Ougi's character did a great job in. I don't know what you mean by everything feeling awkward... Did you feel annoyed because you were expecting some epic clash between these two or something?

It's just that suddenly all the scenes where Ougi flirted with Araragi assumed a different connotation. I could stand Araragi flirt with his sisters, but Ougi... now that's disturbing.

I don't see what the problem is with equating Shoujo with romance, a huge majority of Shoujo manga has to do with romance after all (most but not all). I was merely making a jab at you for wanting to add more love triangles to the story which is a general cliche of Shoujo mangas.

Almost every story has romance. Even Naruto had love triangles. Harems are seinen.

Also, just to be clear, I am in no way trying to insult you, so I am sorry if I happened to offend you in anyway. I tend to come off a bit heated in debates.
I think my main issue here is that you're trying to make Monogatari sound like its just solely a romance series when I honestly feel like its not.

I acknowledge I got a bit angry too.

I think I have perhaps found the point of disagreement. I advocated a love triangle as an overarching plot. The meat and potatoes of Monogatari obviously stay the oddities. There just needs something further to look forward to. I would glad read about a world war between oddities, but Nisio clearly avoids battles if he can, so I think something psychological like a love story may have been more up his alley.

[TonyC1994]

Let me intrude as this seems fun to me.
No, there has not been any antagonist inside this series. Sengoku, Kaiki, Seishirou and the three guys from Kizu were just diversions to create some actual plot device.
Ougi, in anyway, is only a pseudo-antagonist, similarly Gaen and Tadazuru. They only serve as the triggers to spark the plot. Monogatari is just a story of a teenage boy undergoing puberty that suddenly fucked his life up after meeting Kissshot and Meme.

I thought the same thing but I wasn't sure if it was appropriate to say there wasn't any actual antagonists in the whole series. So I took the careful route and just labeled them as antagonists.

I think I have perhaps found the point of disagreement. I advocated a love triangle as an overarching plot. The meat and potatoes of Monogatari obviously stay the oddities. There just needs something further to look forward to. I would glad read about a world war between oddities, but Nisio clearly avoids battles if he can, so I think something psychological like a love story may have been more up his alley.

Ah, I see your point now. Now that I think about it, there really wasn't an overarching plot in the series other than Bakemonogatari.

I usually looked forward to the character interactions the most throughout the series since they were usually very entertaining and interesting to read/watch. So I guess that's why I never encountered your problem. I always assumed that Monogatari was just a story about Araragi and his dealing with oddities plus the relationships he builds along the way.

[JudeLee6]

I been trying to find any new info on Tsugimonogatari. Only thing i found is the title so far. Anybody know any sites or anything?

[shinyaNakagawa]

Originally Posted by JudeLee6

I been trying to find any new info on Tsugimonogatari. Only thing i found is the title so far. Anybody know any sites or anything?

Nisio was busy writing Okitegami Kyouko second novel and Densetsu sequels. I don't think he has begin writing next monogatari entries and that the material is still not enough for Kodansha to announce anything on Tsugimonogatari yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by shinyaNakagawa

Nisio was busy writing Okitegami Kyouko second novel and Densetsu sequels. I don't think he has begin writing next monogatari entries and that the material is still not enough for Kodansha to announce anything on Tsugimonogatari yet.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ok, I'll correct you.

Nisio is busy writing third Okitegami Kyouko novel. No announcements for some new Densetsu sequels yet. Also he continues to write his second (if you'll count Aikawa Jun's Failure series - then third) spin-off to Zaregoto Series. There is already 4 stories in Mephisto Magazine and one was recently released in LN format. No news about Tsugimonogatari.

Buuuuut.
There is some weird trolling from Nisio since autumn. I don't know, maybe it's just a clever advertizing.
The thing is, he is constantly hinting that Okitegami Kyouko Series is actually spin-off to Monogatari Series. In a way, that Okitegami Kyouko-san is actually Hanekawa Tsubasa. One couldn't help but find striking resemblance between those two. Except for a breast size. According to reviews from Japanese readers there are a lot of hints to it.
Maybe, just maybe, this is secretly a spin-off?