Dungeon Defense

[ungururuh]

Originally Posted by mors86

Re-reading the chapter:

@wuhugm

Don't worry about the Dungeon in the name - it comes from the game being called Dungeon Attack which is from Hero POV, so the novel from the opposite POV is called Dungeon Defense. Don't expect Dungeons to play a big part in the story lol.

About the fantasy bit - it's just the genre man. Spice and Wolf could've been written without Horo being a wolf. Maou Maouyuu Yuusha could've been written between two races instead of having demons and magic. It's just a way of establishing the book into a specific genre so that the audience automatically gets some familiarity. It's not something that has to have meaning.

Sure this could've been written in a non-fantasy setting, but then it wouldn't've been much of a reincarnation webnovel and probably wouldn't've gotten picked up for LNs. Authors have to compromise like that all the time. Or are you going to rant about every fanservice scene and harem tropes in every LN as well? :P

I don't think you understand what he is talking about. Especially considering the novels you have given as an example.

[mors86]

Originally Posted by ungururuh

I don't think you understand what he is talking about. Especially considering the novels you have given as an example.

... Well, I definitely don't understand what you are talking about.

I was responding to this:

Originally Posted by wuhugm

.........Laughable

This novel has never been successful in depicting "Demons" vs Humans since it felt like Humans vs Humans since the beginning

And now it's totally making it Humans vs Humans... What?

Dungeons... Demons... These components went completely out of the picture

This novel is great but fuck the fantasy element, just make Dantalian a lowly feudal lord and it will turn the same way

And my point was that these are tropes that define a genre and yes the book could've been written without them, much like the other books I mentioned.

I wonder if you understand what I am talking about...

[wuhugm]

Spice and Wolf, Maouyuu. Comparing with those are like comparing Meteorite to the Milky Way Galaxy. Just not fair comparison mate.

Demons vs Humans total war is the central theme of this novel, you'd think it'd actually delve deeper into that.

[mors86]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Spice and Wolf, Maouyuu. Comparing with those are like comparing Meteorite to the Milky Way Galaxy. Just not fair comparison mate.

Demons vs Humans total war is the central theme of this novel, you'd think it'd actually delve deeper into that.

Really? I think the demon/human bit is just fantasy trappings as part of the genre. It's certainly not a 'theme' or anything. For it to be a theme the novel should've been harping on about differences between human and demons from the start, which it hasn't done.

If you want a superficially similar example where a theme is used, looks at LotR and how Saruman's Uruk-hai were stand-ins for the industrial revolution and that opposed the existing pre-industrial era. The books and the movies showed that very clearly, with the Ents vs Saruman fight. Dungeon Defense doesn't do that at all.

The examples I cited were very dissimilar to this novel except for one thing - they all use a fanatasy setting when they could've been written without it. Their plots/themes weren't anyway related to this novel, but that's not the point of my examples.

[ungururuh]

Originally Posted by mors86

... Well, I definitely don't understand what you are talking about.


I wonder if you understand what I am talking about...

Well, I do understand and I can also tell how you misunderstand the point he is trying to make. Again, it is made evident by the books you have given as an example.

Originally Posted by mors86

Really? I think the demon/human bit is just fantasy trappings as part of the genre.

You haven't read to many fantasy novels have you? Or are you confusing the fantasy genre?

[cabman11]

That felt like a communist speech to me. Did it feel like a communist speech to anyone else?

[mors86]

Originally Posted by ungururuh

Well, I do understand and I can also tell how you misunderstand the point he is trying to make. Again, it is made evident by the books you have given as an example.

You haven't read to many fantasy novels have you? Or are you confusing the fantasy genre?

His point was that human/demon divide is a centrepoint of the novel and he thinks it's being ignored, so the author should've just cut them out. I disagreed. Perhaps instead of being vague you could clarify?

Well, I've read maybe around a few hundred fantasies - talking about published stuff. Prolly more. I dunno if you recognize my username but if you used to trawl around ebook pirating forums you may have seen it in the sff subsections. (I'm not a pirate FBI, I swear.)

I'm talking about tropes for the specific subgenre here by the way. Wonder what I'd call that since it's very different from the western fantasies I usually read, it has some tropes of medieval fantasy and some high fantasy (especially how it emphasizes the hero's journey); but I recognise the genre when I see it.

It's just a bit weird seeing people taking out 'tropes' (I don't know if you know the meaning of the word) and then assign them an arbitrary order of importance. They help establish a novel with the audience.

The fact that there is demons in the novel (or magic) doesn't have to be important.

Maybe you just haven't read enough, I dunno. After a few hundred books you keep getting deja vu on plot similarities but learn to ignore them as you recognize they need not detract from your enjoyment. Authors don't write in a blank space, they take existing structures and pile their stuff on top of them.

I guess we're just talking past each other, huh.

[wuhugm]

???

It's just simple logic yow.

Spice and Wolf main plot is trading, Maoyuu's is land management, you can cut the fantasy part and they will be just fine.

But Dungeon Defense is all about battle. Humans vs Demons.
2 different entities. Like Aliens vs Predators yo. In that movie 1 not equal 1 as we saw a Predator can take on multiple Aliens.

In Dungeon Defense case, Humans (1 species) vs Demons (many species).
Even an elementary schooler knows that 1 : 1 ratio is stupid.
But that's what this novel is doing. Equal numbers = Equal strength. For different entities!
If let's say, demons are only 1 species, orc for example then that's fine. But there are ogres, centaurs, etc.
Then you say author doesn't focus on that so just turn your brain off and enjoy?

[cabman11]

The battle haven't even started yet

[mors86]

@wuhugm Why is a 1:1 ratio stupid? (I actually think there are less Demons in total than Humans, since iirc the humans are actually comparatively progressive whereas the demons are stagnant, and humans have always won in previous battles so that demons have less land. But that's my conjecture so ignore that for now.)

It's like you're thinking there are n species: one of them is human, and the other (n - 1) are demons. So total number of demons must be much higher than humans. There isn't enough information to actually conclude this if you think it through.

1. Demons may have a much lesser fertility rate in general
2. Maybe initially they had a higher number but as they lost crusades and lands, they had smaller spaces to support themselves and so their numbers naturally dwindled (starvation etc)

There could be any number of reasons.

Also remember that all demons follow the order of 72, so the differences between them are probably not as stark (socially) as you're imagining. When you say 'different species' that may be true biologically, but as we've seen it's not true socially.

In sum, there are many other books that have a fight between different species, or even conglomerates of species, and the two sides can have similar number. DD is not the first novel to do this. Basically any SF with a concept of 'alliance of aliens' vs 'another alliance of aliens' is guilty of this. And it's not unrealistic or anything.

[Rinvelt]

It's not what he meant.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider one ogre equal to one human soldier? Because, in my book, you would need more than one human soldier to kill an ogre.

Hence the weird 1:1 ratio.

[Breimn]

Yeah, just like goblins are basically jobbers compared to ogres. Maybe we will get more info on battle stuff when we get loli's POV if there is one?

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by mors86

@wuhugm Why is a 1:1 ratio stupid? (I actually think there are less Demons in total than Humans, since iirc the humans are actually comparatively progressive whereas the demons are stagnant, and humans have always won in previous battles so that demons have less land. But that's my conjecture so ignore that for now.)

It's like you're thinking there are n species: one of them is human, and the other (n - 1) are demons. So total number of demons must be much higher than humans. There isn't enough information to actually conclude this if you think it through.

1. Demons may have a much lesser fertility rate in general
2. Maybe initially they had a higher number but as they lost crusades and lands, they had smaller spaces to support themselves and so their numbers naturally dwindled (starvation etc)

There could be any number of reasons.

Also remember that all demons follow the order of 72, so the differences between them are probably not as stark (socially) as you're imagining. When you say 'different species' that may be true biologically, but as we've seen it's not true socially.

In sum, there are many other books that have a fight between different species, or even conglomerates of species, and the two sides can have similar number. DD is not the first novel to do this. Basically any SF with a concept of 'alliance of aliens' vs 'another alliance of aliens' is guilty of this. And it's not unrealistic or anything.

Ha? What is this guy talking about?

Originally Posted by Rinvelt

It's not what he meant.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider one ogre equal to one human soldier? Because, in my book, you would need more than one human soldier to kill an ogre.

Hence the weird 1:1 ratio.

Exactly what Rinvelt said.

Is this too hard to understand, mors86?

[Ebrie]

Originally Posted by wuhugm

Exactly what Rinvelt said.

Is this too hard to understand, mors86?

There are many types of demons that need not be stronger than humans. We know very little about the demographic makeup in the demon world. It's quite possible that 'demons' refer mostly to typically lower tier creatures like goblins, orcs, dwarves, gnomes, succubi, elves (physically weak) or lycanthropes. Those populations generally combine to equal or surpass human populations in stories, while ogres and ents or other larger beings haven't even been mentioned.

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by Ebrie

There are many types of demons that need not be stronger than humans. We know very little about the demographic makeup in the demon world. It's quite possible that 'demons' refer mostly to typically lower tier creatures like goblins, orcs, dwarves, gnomes, succubi, elves (physically weak) or lycanthropes. Those populations generally combine to equal or surpass human populations in stories, while ogres and ents or other larger beings haven't even been mentioned.

That's exactly what I'm talking about!
Be it weaker or stronger, they are fucking different from humans!
Of course they should be handled differently!

Strategy and tactic differs depending on the pieces you have, right?

Goblins are like what, 1/2 or 1/3 of a single human strength, not suitable for frontal attack, so maybe use them for flanking or diversion.
Centaurs can encircle the enemy formation and harass them with arrows like fucking mongols.
Dwarves and Gnomes, aside from their non-combat utilities, are short and strong, if you move them and orc as one unit you can bewilder humans and rout them.
Succubi for temptation (fucking obvious) or other purpose Dantalian can come up with since he's so fucking intelligent.
Ogres, Trolls, Ents can throw boulders or some shit. Hell, even just their presence can destroy the morale of humans.

Those kinda shits are what I want to see. Fucking demons unique strategies and tactics.

[rantaid]

like Brigandine GE?

[Kristoped]

Only reason they are demons seems like its there to just give them a reason to be enemies.

as far as i have read nothing would need to be changed other than the names to make this a human vs human story.

[wuhugm]

^^Yes~

Originally Posted by Kristoped

Only reason they are demons seems like its there to just give them a reason to be enemies.

as far as i have read nothing would need to be changed other than the names to make this a human vs human story.

Right~

[rantaid]

@wuhugm

well, hate to say this, wuhugm.... but, fuhh-gitt about it.

you should have realize that the author has long gone abandoning fantasy building (post vol.1) in favor for realpolitiks. the author just want to write Ravages in higher scale or LotGH in lesser scale.

beside the author here was not that good in depicting full scale warfare, and to be fair... not many authors are good in writing full scale war. even the battle of Hogwart's in the novel (Harrypotter) was shoddily gloss over, hence we seen offscreen deaths.

so far, from Dungeon Defense, we only seems to get impression of battlefield instead of 3rd party observation. hence many things happen offscreen. we don't see technical stuff, or what really happen. heck, the author doesn't even make clear distinction on each role the military ranking the soldiers had (as you brought up. whether each species has specialized skill, ranking and role in battlefield), so far only witch was glaringly different... (though i wonder whether they are intel gathering scouts or also act as airstrike unit). i just hope that it was because Dantalian had lost his own castle and presummably military forces. i know that he had money, but where is his stronghold and headquarter now beside the Alliance camp?

[wuhugm]

^I know man... That's why it's such a pity

Many of the novels I like are just 1 or 2 steps away from being perfect

Like this DD if it got better description

Another one would be Yaritsukai to Kuroneko, extremely detailed fantasy world, but failed in human relationships.

They could be perfect... why oh why...