AnimeSuki Forums

Takeshi senpai · 2015-08-01, 19:49

Her powers don't work that way. Her ability is teleport, not space manipulation, she just moves the object to another spot in the 3rd dimension through the 11th dimension.

SomeDude! · 2015-08-04, 11:32

Bringing this back up...

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Originally Posted by SomeDude!

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Originally Posted by Inept Forum User

Minor question out of curiosity; what additional launch failure contingencies do you reckon might be implemented for launches inside Academy City?

Additional? I don't remember reading about any launch failure contingencies in NT13.

On another note, what, if anything, has been speculated about Touya's Fung Shui Luck-thing he made for Touma? Ya know, the Angel Fall Spell Circle...?

'Cause Luck is governed by Fire and Water in Fung Shui, according to Wikipedia... So if you want to call down luck, you attract Fire and Water to where you want luck...

Misha Kreutzev is Gabriel, The Angel of Water, with a name related to Micheal, The Angel of Fire, due to the Distortion of the Laws of the World... As the Distortion is all about Switching Identities then if that leaked into Angel Fall... I think I just speculated a whole explanation on why Angel Fall switched (almost) everyone's identities, and why Gabriel was the Angel that was called down...

Also, what if the Fung Shui Circle is why Touma's misfortune stopped spreading, because it had to counter the Fung Shui Luck? Although, that might not be a possible explanation, 'cause if there was a constant magic around Touma, she would sense it?

Plus, Fire is connected to Romantic Love in Fung Shui, so the Fung Shui Circle could have been affecting the Red Strings of Fate of the girls around Touma and starting off his harem... But either his misfortune stops the luck from going further, or the girls need to be the ones making the next step, because Love is not all Luck....?

Also, has anyone wondered if the Dragon Rider could do Cycle Arts like the Acrobike?

Plus, is the Acrobike Touma's counterpart to Shiage's Dragon Rider?

Inept Forum User · 2015-08-04, 16:13

It might be able to carry out some of them or something similar to them, but there are some which it wouldn't be able to carry out.

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Originally Posted by SomeDude!

Additional? I don't remember reading about any launch failure contingencies in NT13.

There weren't. Sorry, I should have been a little clearer. What I was thinking about were possible additional contingencies that might be implemented for rocket launches in Academy City other than the standard failure contingencies that are present for rocket launches from other places, given its situation, circumstances and what is known of AC's technology, as well as any other minor things related to it.

(I had wondered whether the supersonic plane's destruct method might be implemented as well as the traditional destruct method, however I was uncertain of how effective it would be in these circumstances)

Doom_Paperclip · 2015-08-04, 19:24

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Originally Posted by tsunade666

I don't think the magic gods body is made up of magic. if its made up of magic then IB should work on them but it didn't kill them by just touching.

while I would agree that magic god's body might be different in basic elements that made it up but I don't think its entirely magical. Just different natural laws.

I never said the Magic Gods were made of Magic. They certainly aren't a mass of special power in the way an angel like Gabriel is. However, they are magical enough that they can't stop making mana. I suppose their situation is, ironically, similar to that of Espers, who can't simply stop emitting AIM because their power is ingrained in them to the point that it is subconscious, a function of their being as natural as their own heartbeat.

As such, AIM in concentrated form is probably dangerous to Magic Gods in ways it is not to a normal Magician. I guess we might never know for sure, though, since all the Magic Gods have already been taken care of, except for a couple of severely weakened stragglers.

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Originally Posted by LevelSeven

if his powers are at 100% i think it wont do anything, in his nerfed version i think that if he uses magic he will suffer injuries like vento (or a bit more)

I doubt even a 100% Magic God can protect themselves from AIM rejection damage. They can deal with any spell easily enough, even one designed to kill them like the Fairy Spell, because those means of attack are ultimately part of the Magic Side which they have mastered. AIM, however, is different. It is part of the science side that lies outside of their domain.

Othinus could have made herself into a Holistic Esper if she had wanted to, but even she didn't want to risk rejection despite the fact that the power would be different from those of AC's Espers. Despite the other Magic Gods looking down on her, she seems like a more competent schemer than them by far, seeing as she was able to predict and control the movements of her enemies without having to swap a single phase, whereas true Gremlin walked right into Aleister's hands by underestimating him. I trust her judgment.

AIM undermines the very foundation of Magic. Magic warps reality based on a supernatural setting constructed by the user, but those realities are based on the assumption that said user is an ordinary human without powers. AIM adds additional traits which interfere with the construction of such settings, resulting in rejection. It is unlikely that Magic alone, no matter the power, can overcome this problem.

In order to overcome AIM rejection, Magic itself would have to be rebuilt from the ground up to give birth to an alternate form of spells based on the assumption of a user who already has special powers. I is likely that of all the characters in TAMNI, only Aleister is capable of this.

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[IB] affects leylines, the problem is that leylines wont stop, this is how the flying castle in NT2 followed touma... it tracked the disturbance in leylines which his right hand created...

Wrong:

Spoiler for really long quote:

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Originally Posted by NT2

"Do you remember what I said about leylines?"

"...You said that they were one of the types of energy that could be used for magic other than the magic power created by humans. If I remember, they have to do with the Earth and its terrain," Accelerator said.

"That's right." Birdway nodded. "And Imagine Breaker negates all kinds of supernatural powers. And that includes the power circulated by the planet."

"So, his right hand is like a snowplow and that giant fortress is following the path he's created?"

"It's not that simple," Birdway responded to Accelerator's question with a sardonic grin. "Imagine Breaker works exceedingly well when it is normalizing abnormal values, but it does not show much power when dealing with something that is uniform from the start. It only carries out destruction of things that have already had their harmony taken. ...For example, he does not destroy someone's soul when he touches them, and he does not destroy the planet when he touches it. Yet those things do indeed have supernatural power flowing through them."

"...Does it really work so conveniently like that?" asked Kamijou himself.

The boy looked down at his right hand, and Birdway continued speaking in an arrogant way.

"This isn't just limited to Imagine Breaker. Natural powers like yours are often initially set to conform to the environment or situation. And the natural Gemstones are people who received psychic powers via stimuli from the environment of Earth," she said in a simple manner. "To talk about the leylines... Oh, I know. I'll use the example of a snowplow you used. When Imagine Breaker scrapes away the accumulated snow, more snow quickly accumulates, preventing anyone from seeing the path. It would be more accurate to say that a cycle like that has been set up from the beginning than to say that it has to do with how much the planet can replenish the power."

"Then how the hell is that fortress tracking that Level 0?" asked Accelerator.

"'They' can't search for him normally, so 'they' set up a kind of trick."

"A trick? On the fortress?"

Kamijou looked puzzled, but Birdway's response was well beyond his expectation.

"No, on the planet."

"..."

The scale was so great that Kamijou's thoughts cut out.

But Birdway continued speaking regardless.

"The amount removed by Imagine Breaker is made to be naturally compensated for by the surroundings. 'They' have interfered with that cycle. They have made it so that a mark only Radiosonde Castle can detect will be left behind during the process of repairing the amount removed."

"How...?" asked Hamazura who still had not quite come to grips with the concept of magic. "Saying they interfered with the planet is simple enough, but how did they do it!?"

"They used feng shui. The locations of mountains and rivers change the flow of energy, so people build their palaces in the most suitable place based on that. ...Well, the opposite is also possible. If you want a certain change to occur to the energy of the leylines, you just have to systematically destroy the mountains and rivers."

It was easy to say.

For the sake of a single spell, the terrain had been blotted out somewhere on that planet. That was yet another result of the individual surpassing the whole. The magicians used everything at their disposal to carry out the goal before their eyes without giving any thought to what would come later.

Hamazura gulped.

"Would they... would they really go that far to find a single person...?"

"Compared to Radiosonde Castle, that is nothing more than a sub spell. How much energy do you think it takes to make a mass that huge float like that? Well, it's certainly not something you can pull off with gas turbines," Birdway said smoothly. "Let's get back to the topic at hand. In order to follow Imagine Breaker, 'they' have interfered with the system of the leylines running through this planet. Imagine Breaker destroys that energy, and their mark is automatically created in the process of the repairing cycle. It's like a potato or a jewel. Using that, Radiosonde Castle can accurately follow Imagine Breaker no matter where in the world he flees. Do you understand that much?"

"But that would mean there's no way to escape it!!" yelled Hamazura with his eyes wide, but Birdway was as calm as ever.

"'Their' spell may be hitching a ride on the cycle that repairs the lost power to the leylines, but it is not producing the mark at all times. 'They' have to think about the cost. It would be easiest if you just thought of it like transmitters set up at even intervals."

"..."

"Basically, they're automatically produced in the Earth at about every 50 kilometers. If Imagine Breaker is not in range, it heads for the next transmitter, but if he is in range, it is guided with even more detail. In other words..."

IB does nothing to leylines under normal circumstances, because IB's purpose isn't really to negate supernatural powers. IB's purpose is to fix the world and negating supernatural powers is merely the means by which it does that. Thus it won't affect supernatural powers that are doing what they are meant to do according to the world's natural order, like life force, souls and leylines.

To track him, Gremlin had to mess up the leylines on a global scale, then detected IB as it put the disturbed leylines back to normal. It wouldn't have been possible to track him otherwise.

LevelSeven · 2015-08-05, 08:35

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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

I doubt even a 100% Magic God can protect themselves from AIM rejection damage.

they can heal wounds like a planet-busting-arrow through their chest... i dont think that some bleeding will be a issue :/

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They can deal with any spell easily enough, even one designed to kill them like the Fairy Spell, because those means of attack are ultimately part of the Magic Side which they have mastered. AIM, however, is different. It is part of the science side that lies outside of their domain.

AIM is produced by the PR, until now we dont know how they are created...
if magic can reproduce that than they can easily manipulate AIM too :/

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Othinus could have made herself into a Holistic Esper if she had wanted to, but even she didn't want to risk rejection despite the fact that the power would be different from those of AC's Espers.

wasnt this while she had her 50% failure? she would always fear the risk by using her power :/

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Despite the other Magic Gods looking down on her, she seems like a more competent schemer than them by far, seeing as she was able to predict and control the movements of her enemies without having to swap a single phase, whereas true Gremlin walked right into Aleister's hands by underestimating him. I trust her judgment.

to be fair, the other majins fought against aleister, the beig bad of the toaru-verse, on the other hand othinus betrayed some gremlin-fodders and other humans/magicians...

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AIM undermines the very foundation of Magic. Magic warps reality based on a supernatural setting constructed by the user, but those realities are based on the assumption that said user is an ordinary human without powers. AIM adds additional traits which interfere with the construction of such settings, resulting in rejection. It is unlikely that Magic alone, no matter the power, can overcome this problem.

In order to overcome AIM rejection, Magic itself would have to be rebuilt from the ground up to give birth to an alternate form of spells based on the assumption of a user who already has special powers. I is likely that of all the characters in TAMNI, only Aleister is capable of this.

but this would open a question: why do they need to change the system of a spell if it is outside of the aims influence?
like: using a spell which causes a vulcan to erupt, the aim of the esper goes at most 2 meters into each direction, this is the effective range where the PR/AIM distorts reality, but the spell has its affect FAR away from it...

that means that there is something else that creates the rejection, i think that if PR is the outcome of a changed soul and the outcome of this changed-soul is AIM, it would mean that the reason for the change is simply the inability of the esper to produce mana, he literally forces his body to do something which he shouldnt be able to do :/ but it is only a theory :/

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IB does nothing to leylines under normal circumstances, because IB's purpose isn't really to negate supernatural powers. IB's purpose is to fix the world and negating supernatural powers is merely the means by which it does that. Thus it won't affect supernatural powers that are doing what they are meant to do according to the world's natural order, like life force, souls and leylines.

To track him, Gremlin had to mess up the leylines on a global scale, then detected IB as it put the disturbed leylines back to normal. It wouldn't have been possible to track him otherwise.

sorry and thanks, i got it wrong

Doom_Paperclip · 2015-08-06, 10:45

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Originally Posted by LevelSeven

they can heal wounds like a planet-busting-arrow through their chest... i dont think that some bleeding will be a issue :/

Except healing the wounds caused by the AIM rejection would require using magic, which would lead to even more wounds, which would require even more magic ect...

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AIM is produced by the PR, until now we dont know how they are created...
if magic can reproduce that than they can easily manipulate AIM too :/

If magic could reproduce that, Aleister wouldn't have needed to build AC. He could have just joined the Magic God club if magic were enough. It's pretty safe to assume that magic can't do that.

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wasnt this while she had her 50% failure? she would always fear the risk by using her power :/

And yet, she still used it when she had to. 50% Othinus knew caution, not cowardice.

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to be fair, the other majins fought against aleister, the beig bad of the toaru-verse, on the other hand othinus betrayed some gremlin-fodders and other humans/magicians...

Granted, but they were still suicidally overconfident. That cost them dearly.

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but this would open a question: why do they need to change the system of a spell if it is outside of the aims influence?
like: using a spell which causes a vulcan to erupt, the aim of the esper goes at most 2 meters into each direction, this is the effective range where the PR/AIM distorts reality, but the spell has its affect FAR away from it...

that means that there is something else that creates the rejection, i think that if PR is the outcome of a changed soul and the outcome of this changed-soul is AIM, it would mean that the reason for the change is simply the inability of the esper to produce mana, he literally forces his body to do something which he shouldnt be able to do :/ but it is only a theory :/

I'd like to deny everything you just said here, but that would require me to actually understand what you're trying to say here, which, despite my best efforts, I cannot. Could you please express yourself in a clearer manner so that I may resume arguing against you?

Tiken · 2015-08-06, 12:08

You know, I've always wondered something about why the magic side and the science side fight against each other so much. But then, I thought about this: Science is a matter of facts, and Magic is a matter of faith. In short, the entire struggle between both sides can be summed up to Universal Truths vs. Spiritual Beliefs.

When seen from this angle, the incompatibility of AIM/Mana may in actuality come down to the contents of ones inner soul. By this I mean, the further one delves into fantasy, the more they tend to suspend their own beliefs. And whenever one gives themselves over to the absolute nature of scientific reasoning, they tend to cast aside their beliefs in favor of the what is real. What is real, and what is simply make believe can be viewed only by the person that knows where they stand. You can't lie to yourself about who you are, because your soul will never change. It always reflect your true self.

So... what if it really comes down to just that? And by that I mean, the inability to internalize both sides of the spectrum. The inability to betray ones inner soul. A conflict within ones self that tears at your identity, and destroys you from the inside, that is, unless you pick which side you belong to.

Draco Spirit · 2015-08-06, 12:42

My take is that the Esper powers are just a very very distorted style of magic that was created via the Book of Law(Note how all Espers control a rule?). The conflict with traditional magic is very much a intended consequence because of Crowleys deep hated of it.

It even looks like all the 'super science' tech is Esper in origin, somehow using there rules to make imposable science possible.

On a related point, Crowleys is a Archetype Controller, so the whole Science vs Magic is likely a convenient mass distortion of the truth.

SomeDude! · 2015-08-06, 13:27

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Originally Posted by Draco Spirit

My take is that the Esper powers are just a very very distorted style of magic that was created via the Book of Law(Note how all Espers control a rule?). The conflict with traditional magic is very much a intended consequence because of Crowleys deep hated of it.

Well, Gemstone powers operate along more messy lines compared to Academy City's Espers... For example, look at Himegami: Vampire Destroying Blood, and Sogita Gunha: Undefined Sentai Power, and compare them to things like Areo Hand and Electromaster...

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Originally Posted by Draco Spirit

It even looks like all the 'super science' tech is Esper in origin, somehow using there rules to make imposable science possible.

Okay, No. Hard Science tech, like the HsSSV-01 and other Hs-Tech, is actual ToAru Pure World Physics. If it wasn't , Imagine Breaker would have broken it...

Unless the 'core' is protected by metal and stuff, but I don't think so...

Also the Fiveovers...

Equ.Darkmatter, is one of the few/only bits of Esper-derived tech we've seen.

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Originally Posted by Draco Spirit

On a related point, Crowleys is a Archetype Controller, so the whole Science vs Magic is likely a convenient mass distortion of the truth.

Yeah, it's not really Science vs. Magic, it's actually AC vs Church, or Crowley vs Stuart... Nesessarius can put Academy City stuff in their Laundry Room, Laura can use Academy City tubs...

Well, Espers vs. Idol Theory... Whatever...

Tiken · 2015-08-07, 02:54

The fact that machines in To Aru are able to utilize AIM only makes my theory about how Noukan killed the high priest even more believable. Mana doesn't require a living host, and neither does AIM.

Also, keep in mind, Himegami is a gemstone, then her ability to destroy vampires - a creature of myth - still aligns with my theory on soul contents. Sogita Gunha on the otherhand - this is why I came with this theory on the souls - why was Ollerus even interested in him? By all intents and purposes, Gunha is an Esper

but...

What if there is a chance that his soul is irrational enough to accept the simultaneous existence of both Mana and AIM - which would in turn imply that a balance can be found. It might be possible to be both an Esper & a Magician, its just that the only people on the Science side that even know magic exists, are a select number of the Kiharas, Touma, Accelerator - (he knows about it, but he still kind of sees how it works as being pure bullshit), Shiage, (Does he count?), or people like Aleister. And Aleister is the most suspicious out of all of them. I think he can use both, its just that every time he fights, it cuts out the good parts. So far, the machine he uses in the Windowless building hasn't exactly been explained that much. Aside from how it keeps him preserved in an artificial bubble like state, maybe he needs it to balance out both his Mana & AIM levels, and the spying technology is just a benefit of it?

Basically, until it is explained otherwise in the LNs, I'm going to believe that an Esper's Personal Reality and and a Magicians Dreams/Wishs - are a state of identity within ones soul which is summed to - Yin & Yang, Darkness & Light, or if you prefer, Jedi's vs Sith lords, etc.)

SomeDude! · 2015-08-07, 07:16

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Originally Posted by Tiken

Gunha is an Esper

Gunha is a Gemstone, all Gemstones are Espers...

Tiken · 2015-08-07, 07:56

I know that, I never said they weren't.

allfictions · 2015-08-07, 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiken

You know, I've always wondered something about why the magic side and the science side fight against each other so much. But then, I thought about this: Science is a matter of facts, and Magic is a matter of faith. In short, the entire struggle between both sides can be summed up to Universal Truths vs. Spiritual Beliefs.

When seen from this angle, the incompatibility of AIM/Mana may in actuality come down to the contents of ones inner soul. By this I mean, the further one delves into fantasy, the more they tend to suspend their own beliefs. And whenever one gives themselves over to the absolute nature of scientific reasoning, they tend to cast aside their beliefs in favor of the what is real. What is real, and what is simply make believe can be viewed only by the person that knows where they stand. You can't lie to yourself about who you are, because your soul will never change. It always reflect your true self.

So... what if it really comes down to just that? And by that I mean, the inability to internalize both sides of the spectrum. The inability to betray ones inner soul. A conflict within ones self that tears at your identity, and destroys you from the inside, that is, unless you pick which side you belong to.

You mean, how esper powers work by convincing yourself you can change reality and believing it, while magic is using methods that have been proved reliable and doesn't really require you to believe in the religion or mythology you are using? Likem the exact opposite of what you are positing?

Seems like your theory needs more work.

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Originally Posted by Tiken

The fact that machines in To Aru are able to utilize AIM only makes my theory about how Noukan killed the high priest even more believable. Mana doesn't require a living host, and neither does AIM.

Machines don't "use" AIM, they harness it in order to use it. That's a pretty big distinction from being able to create it itself. And both mana and AIM do require, absolutely, a living human in order to be created and used, as they emit from them (lifeforce for mana, esper powers for AIM).

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but he still kind of sees how it works as being pure bullshit

He doesn't. He was pretty quick to make connections with Feng shui and such.

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And Aleister is the most suspicious out of all of them. I think he can use both, its just that every time he fights, it cuts out the good parts. So far, the machine he uses in the Windowless building hasn't exactly been explained that much. Aside from how it keeps him preserved in an artificial bubble like state, maybe he needs it to balance out both his Mana & AIM levels, and the spying technology is just a benefit of it?

So, er, kind of have a big question: when was it that Aleister was confirmed an Esper?

LevelSeven · 2015-08-07, 10:51

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Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip

Except healing the wounds caused by the AIM rejection would require using magic, which would lead to even more wounds, which would require even more magic ect...

true...
but, if majins can do whhat NT9-othinus did than she would add a layer to the world and AC would vanish (together with espers and AIM) but it we dont know exactly if it could interefere,
i think that it wouldnt...50%-othinus destroyed IT with her success-side, the other majins are stronger than 100%-success othinus...

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If magic could reproduce that, Aleister wouldn't have needed to build AC. He could have just joined the Magic God club if magic were enough. It's pretty safe to assume that magic can't do that.

we dont know if he needed science, aleister chosed it because he wanted something different which couldnt be reached via magic...im not sure if esper-powers/PRs are the thing which he wanted :/

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And yet, she still used it when she had to. 50% Othinus knew caution, not cowardice.

you mean in NT8 with the dark-matter-h-esper? but she didnt turn herself into a esper, she "only" used her powers in order to stabilizhe the h-espers body...

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Granted, but they were still suicidally overconfident. That cost them dearly.

to be fair, imagine yourself as a being which would destroy the world by only setting a foot on it, imagine to live for who knows how many years and never find anyone to be a match (aside from other majins) against you...
i think the confidence is undestandable

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I'd like to deny everything you just said here, but that would require me to actually understand what you're trying to say here, which, despite my best efforts, I cannot. Could you please express yourself in a clearer manner so that I may resume arguing against you?

sorry, i will try:
imagine a esper, he has a AIM field, his aim field isnt infnitely large, it stop after 2 or so meters...

imagine he wants to cast a spell which affects the clouds in 10(or so)km...

now the question: does he need to change the magis system if the "affected reality" isnt even in the near of his aim field? if yes, than why? obvously the affected reality from the espers aim isnt touched... that would mean that soething else creates the rejection...maybe it has to do with your speculation about "aim distorts it first and normal magic systems can tbe used"...

btw, if your theory was correct, than wouldnt this mean that normal magicians cant affect the surroundings or espers either? afterall the magics "coordinates" wouldnt work thanks to the distorted reality :/

Tiken · 2015-08-07, 11:15

I guess calling it a theory would provoke disagreement. An assumption probably fits it better I suppose. But no, you're right, magic so far doesn't require religious thought - what it has required though is the desire to use it for one's own personal gain (Dreams/Wishes). But when you look at it another way though, almost every magician that has ever showed up so far has always been connected by some kind of religious background. Pretty much all of them, yes, even the high priest, as well as all of the other magic gods.

As for personal realities - for whatever reason, Academy City scientists can actually give a real explanation for why Espers can do what they do. Yes, Espers do produce AIM, but where exactly is this coming from? Just their thoughts? From their minds? I doubt it. That seems too simple.

If mana is created from ones own life force, wouldn't it make sense that AIM comes from the same place?

Utilize - the definition of this means to use something, not produce it. I never said the FiveOvers produced AIM, I only said that they can - utilize - it.

Also, I think this volume stressed it enough by now that the high priest has been dead for a very long time now. And Kazakiri is technically not even alive, or human, yet she acts like one.
( - doesn't require a living host. - )

I will give you the one about Accelerator though, but in my defense - Birdways explaination was pretty boring, and I skipped about half of it.

Aleister has not been confirmed an Esper. But there have been some massive hints. (Even you have to admit this.)

Sorry if what I said somehow caused a misunderstanding. I was only speculating things. I am in the right thread for that I think. at least I hope I am this time?

LevelSeven · 2015-08-07, 11:36

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Originally Posted by Tiken

If mana is created from ones own life force, wouldn't it make sense that AIM comes from the same place?

this is what i think too...maybe the esper power needs to have a "changed" lifefource/soul, and AIM is the result instead of mana...
this would also make sense for the rejection, the soul got changed and forcing it to create mana will only have negative effects, and accels case could also be expained, he simply created as much mana as his soul/body was able to withstand, therefore: he began to sweat abnormally instead of exploding

tsunade666 · 2015-08-07, 13:08

AIM doesn't comes from life force and mana comes from after refining life force. Plus life force is only used if you don't have innate mana or magic. I doubt those saints who brims with thelesma or divine magic needs to refine their life force to produce mana.

I don't think Aleister is an esper.

There are wordings that he did his best to stop being a magician. he even plug himself to a machine to stop his body in harnessing the life force to produce mana/magic.

But even if Aleister is not an esper, he can probably manipulate AIM. the pure particles of esper ability.

Tiken · 2015-08-07, 18:22

I'm not sure that I can explain anything better than I already did, so I'll just accept that a few here have different ideas.

No matter what anyone says to me about it though, I'm still going with my assumption that thelesma/mana/AIM/the force until the books say otherwise. Aside from that, the book doesn't always explain things in coherent ways, and I sometimes get the impression that even Kamachi is pulling a few of these explanations straight out of his ass on the fly. But he is creating a fictional world, so that is forgivable.

I may be wrong about Aleister, you may be right instead. Nothing is assured until it is said, and once again, It hasn't been confirmed that he is an Esper, just implied.

I'll just concede at this point, as I've presented my thoughts, and that was all I wanted to do.

allfictions · 2015-08-07, 19:01

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Originally Posted by Tiken

But when you look at it another way though, almost every magician that has ever showed up so far has always been connected by some kind of religious background. Pretty much all of them, yes, even the high priest, as well as all of the other magic gods.

You are thinking about this wrong. Religions is not as big a factor as you make it to be, or else why do many Anglicans use Norse magics or why are there tons of magics based on fairy tales, which isn't exactly religious? The answer why Magicians are associated with religions is far simpler: isn't it simply because the religious denominations are technically the largest "cabals"? You get more ressources to help your magic, easy access to Grimoires you couldn't if you were from another religion, and you overall have less chances to get screwed over by the selfish whims of one Magician of your group.

You really shouldn't have skipped Birdway's explanations, it says all that and more.

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As for personal realities - for whatever reason, Academy City scientists can actually give a real explanation for why Espers can do what they do.

Can they now?

If so, why has Komoe sensei sai Level 0s are an anomaly that shouldn't be possible? Or why was has AC been said to have been unable to find any plants and animals other than humans able to develop esper powers, even especially intelligent animals? What about Gemstones, they are formed naturally, yet their powers don't seem to function based on calculations or laws of physics, doesn't that mean personal reality are closer to beliefs than anything scientific? If the source for esper powers was only the brain, and Rensa can rearrange her brain and body to recreate other esper's, why would she just be able to act as an output point and stop being able to use a power if the owner dies but she still has their data?

Look, even in canon personal realities have been described as "delusions, preconceptions, or the ability to believe", and the uncertainty principle is litterally an observer interacting subjectively with their environment. There's nothing "objective", "scientific", or "universal" about that.

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Yes, Espers do produce AIM, but where exactly is this coming from? Just their thoughts? From their minds? I doubt it. That seems too simple. If mana is created from ones own life force, wouldn't it make sense that AIM comes from the same place?

Erm, AIM is simply residual energy from their power, you know that, right? Pyrokinetic espers heat up their surroundings, telekinesis espers create pressure, and electromasters release electromagnetic fields, etc.

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I never said the FiveOvers produced AIM, I only said that they can - utilize - it.

I thought you were talking about Rensa, because the Five_OVERS don't use AIM, they are simply replicating powers by mechanical means, as in totally normal means (except Five_OVER Mental Out, which apparently need to take the power directly from Misaki).

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Also, I think this volume stressed it enough by now that the high priest has been dead for a very long time now.

Then you misunderstood what it said. HP died, not that he is still dead. Othinus also died since she hung herself, would you say she is dead? And I presume Nephthys (as a mummy), NiangNiang (as a vampire), and Zombie Girl died as well. They simply later came back as Magic Gods, another form of existence, that doesn't make them not living. Especially weird to say when Aleister "instilled the fear of death", which wouldn't make any sense if they were still dead.

Next time, don't use extreme outliers as example. By that same token, Gabriel (a being made of Telesma), God's Right Seat (whose members can't use normal magic due to their cleansing), and Ollerus (whose special refined mana from trying to become Majin no longer allows him to perform normal magic) could also be used as "examples" of regular magicians, which I'm sure you will agree would be ridiculous.

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And Kazakiri is technically not even alive, or human, yet she acts like one.
( - doesn't require a living host. - )

And the AIM she is composed of come from...?

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Aleister has not been confirmed an Esper. But there have been some massive hints. (Even you have to admit this.)

Er, what hints? Every time we have seen Aleister in action, he has used either magic (his rod, his magic name) or technology (Archetype Controller?). You're litterally the first person I saw say that.

SomeDude! · 2015-08-07, 19:29

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Originally Posted by allfictions

Erm, AIM is simply residual energy from their power, you know that, right? Pyrokinetic espers heat up their surroundings, telekinesis espers create pressure, and electromasters release electromagnetic fields, etc.

Oh! I didn't know that... So, AIM is not a particle, but come about due to the AIM Diffusion Fields that Espers emit, affecting the world?

So, since AIM Jammers reflect something... and that something is Diffusion Fields, all AIM Diffusion Fields are made up of a common particle, or some other commonality...?

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Originally Posted by allfictions

Then you misunderstood what it said. HP died, not that he is still dead. Othinus also died since she hung herself, would you say she is dead? And I presume Nephthys (as a mummy), NiangNiang (as a vampire), and Zombie Girl died as well. They simply later came back as Magic Gods, another form of existence, that doesn't make them not living. Especially weird to say when Aleister "instilled the fear of death", which wouldn't make any sense if they were still dead.

Hmm... So, to be a Magic God, do you have to die?

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Originally Posted by allfictions

And the AIM she is composed of come from...?

Hmm... So Hyouka is made of AIM Diffusion Fields, which she unconsciously controls to generate her form, and is therefore an Output Point, like Rensa is? Or is it that her consciousness is stored in the AIM Prism inside her head, like a Reliquary, or some varieties of Soul Gems, and that serves as the AIM Output Point, and she's something like Mjölnir, in that her 'body' doesn't look like a body?

Based on that, would Hyouka only 'die' if Touma touched her Prism or if it broke?

If the Radio Noise Network is to spread AIM Diffusion Fields across the whole world, Aleister either mustn't need a variety of AIM around the world to form a Imaginary District and the Imaginary District can made using only one AIM Diffusion Field, if this assumption based on Urban Legends is correct, from here:

"According to the urban legends, the Imaginary Number District existed when the Academy City was first established. It can be assumed that the Imaginary Number District has existed when the first esper was made to emit AIM."

And from here, Aiwass can make the SISTERS' Diffusion Field gain the property to generate the Imaginary District, or Hyouka only needs one Diffusion Field to keep from disappearing, most likely due to that AIM Prism...

And from that, into crack-fic speculation here:

If every Esper were a Pyrokinetic or something other type, Hyouka would be a sentient fire or a Poltergeist or something? Maybe?

Also, mainly for myself, everything about Hyouka should also apply to the AIM Burst... except the parts that are not generalizable to AIM Diffusion Field Beings in general

2015-08-07, 13:08	Link #2677
tsunade666 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: In my room	AIM doesn't comes from life force and mana comes from after refining life force. Plus life force is only used if you don't have innate mana or magic. I doubt those saints who brims with thelesma or divine magic needs to refine their life force to produce mana. I don't think Aleister is an esper. There are wordings that he did his best to stop being a magician. he even plug himself to a machine to stop his body in harnessing the life force to produce mana/magic. But even if Aleister is not an esper, he can probably manipulate AIM. the pure particles of esper ability. __________________ To A certain Lonely Hero

2015-08-01, 19:49	Link #2661
Takeshi senpai Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2015	Her powers don't work that way. Her ability is teleport, not space manipulation, she just moves the object to another spot in the 3rd dimension through the 11th dimension.

2015-08-06, 12:08	Link #2667
Tiken Supreme Coconut Edgelord Join Date: Aug 2015	You know, I've always wondered something about why the magic side and the science side fight against each other so much. But then, I thought about this: Science is a matter of facts, and Magic is a matter of faith. In short, the entire struggle between both sides can be summed up to Universal Truths vs. Spiritual Beliefs. When seen from this angle, the incompatibility of AIM/Mana may in actuality come down to the contents of ones inner soul. By this I mean, the further one delves into fantasy, the more they tend to suspend their own beliefs. And whenever one gives themselves over to the absolute nature of scientific reasoning, they tend to cast aside their beliefs in favor of the what is real. What is real, and what is simply make believe can be viewed only by the person that knows where they stand. You can't lie to yourself about who you are, because your soul will never change. It always reflect your true self. So... what if it really comes down to just that? And by that I mean, the inability to internalize both sides of the spectrum. The inability to betray ones inner soul. A conflict within ones self that tears at your identity, and destroys you from the inside, that is, unless you pick which side you belong to.

2015-08-06, 12:42	Link #2668
Draco Spirit Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013	My take is that the Esper powers are just a very very distorted style of magic that was created via the Book of Law(Note how all Espers control a rule?). The conflict with traditional magic is very much a intended consequence because of Crowleys deep hated of it. It even looks like all the 'super science' tech is Esper in origin, somehow using there rules to make imposable science possible. On a related point, Crowleys is a Archetype Controller, so the whole Science vs Magic is likely a convenient mass distortion of the truth.

2015-08-07, 02:54	Link #2670
Tiken Supreme Coconut Edgelord Join Date: Aug 2015	The fact that machines in To Aru are able to utilize AIM only makes my theory about how Noukan killed the high priest even more believable. Mana doesn't require a living host, and neither does AIM. Also, keep in mind, Himegami is a gemstone, then her ability to destroy vampires - a creature of myth - still aligns with my theory on soul contents. Sogita Gunha on the otherhand - this is why I came with this theory on the souls - why was Ollerus even interested in him? By all intents and purposes, Gunha is an Esper but... What if there is a chance that his soul is irrational enough to accept the simultaneous existence of both Mana and AIM - which would in turn imply that a balance can be found. It might be possible to be both an Esper & a Magician, its just that the only people on the Science side that even know magic exists, are a select number of the Kiharas, Touma, Accelerator - (he knows about it, but he still kind of sees how it works as being pure bullshit), Shiage, (Does he count?), or people like Aleister. And Aleister is the most suspicious out of all of them. I think he can use both, its just that every time he fights, it cuts out the good parts. So far, the machine he uses in the Windowless building hasn't exactly been explained that much. Aside from how it keeps him preserved in an artificial bubble like state, maybe he needs it to balance out both his Mana & AIM levels, and the spying technology is just a benefit of it? Basically, until it is explained otherwise in the LNs, I'm going to believe that an Esper's Personal Reality and and a Magicians Dreams/Wishs - are a state of identity within ones soul which is summed to - Yin & Yang, Darkness & Light, or if you prefer, Jedi's vs Sith lords, etc.)

2015-08-07, 07:56	Link #2672
Tiken Supreme Coconut Edgelord Join Date: Aug 2015	I know that, I never said they weren't.

2015-08-07, 11:15	Link #2675
Tiken Supreme Coconut Edgelord Join Date: Aug 2015	I guess calling it a theory would provoke disagreement. An assumption probably fits it better I suppose. But no, you're right, magic so far doesn't require religious thought - what it has required though is the desire to use it for one's own personal gain (Dreams/Wishes). But when you look at it another way though, almost every magician that has ever showed up so far has always been connected by some kind of religious background. Pretty much all of them, yes, even the high priest, as well as all of the other magic gods. As for personal realities - for whatever reason, Academy City scientists can actually give a real explanation for why Espers can do what they do. Yes, Espers do produce AIM, but where exactly is this coming from? Just their thoughts? From their minds? I doubt it. That seems too simple. If mana is created from ones own life force, wouldn't it make sense that AIM comes from the same place? Utilize - the definition of this means to use something, not produce it. I never said the FiveOvers produced AIM, I only said that they can - utilize - it. Also, I think this volume stressed it enough by now that the high priest has been dead for a very long time now. And Kazakiri is technically not even alive, or human, yet she acts like one. ( - doesn't require a living host. - ) I will give you the one about Accelerator though, but in my defense - Birdways explaination was pretty boring, and I skipped about half of it. Aleister has not been confirmed an Esper. But there have been some massive hints. (Even you have to admit this.) Sorry if what I said somehow caused a misunderstanding. I was only speculating things. I am in the right thread for that I think. at least I hope I am this time?

2015-08-07, 18:22	Link #2678
Tiken Supreme Coconut Edgelord Join Date: Aug 2015	I'm not sure that I can explain anything better than I already did, so I'll just accept that a few here have different ideas. No matter what anyone says to me about it though, I'm still going with my assumption that thelesma/mana/AIM/the force until the books say otherwise. Aside from that, the book doesn't always explain things in coherent ways, and I sometimes get the impression that even Kamachi is pulling a few of these explanations straight out of his ass on the fly. But he is creating a fictional world, so that is forgivable. I may be wrong about Aleister, you may be right instead. Nothing is assured until it is said, and once again, It hasn't been confirmed that he is an Esper, just implied. I'll just concede at this point, as I've presented my thoughts, and that was all I wanted to do.