Spoiler Policy Q&A thread

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

Playing safe for mods and admins means people can't discuss anything based on spoilers or summaries in this forum, I see, and all that just because "it will probably get licensed in the future".

You can discuss any parts of it you want; you can't post or quote the summary beyond a certain point though.

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

@Konakaga you can easily ask to everyone on shomin sample thread about the spoilers/summaries related just to pieces of info getting deleted, and all that was almost 10 pages. Do not lie to everyone there.

Again there was no record of such deleted content that I could find currently; I can find some deleted stuff for shomin sample, but nothing like what you're describing or near that size. So can you give me a date range of when this supposed deletion occurred, so I can better attempt to find it. As we generally never hard delete things, so we can still track it.

As most of the deletion were off-topic things that I found.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

you can easily ask to everyone on shomin sample thread about the spoilers/summaries related just to pieces of info getting deleted, and all that was almost 10 pages. Do not lie to everyone there. Also lazy are the people who delete even 1 phrase pointing a fact just because you don't even know what a spoiler is.

I'm going to address this separately.

We never delete posts permanently. There are all of three things that can happen: 1) we delete them in the thread, 2) we hide them in the thread, 3) we move them into a hidden thread. So if the posts really existed, they're still here in one of those three places. 10 pages of posts did not just "vanish".

And regarding the second point... the spoiler rules are clear about when things should be in tags and when they should not be in tags. If a poster can't be bothered to read the rules and follow them, their post may be deleted. I'm not going to make any apologies about that. If you believe a post was deleted in error due to a misunderstanding of the contents, please report that specific post so it can be reviewed.

Our definition of a spoiler is not the same as what some people are used to from other sites. I would encourage you to actually read the policy to understand what we define as a spoiler here.

[ices]

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

the info on every thread in this forum comes in PARTS, that means you cant get everything summarized on the first page because is really hard, specially in LN's with 9+ volumes,

I didn't understand what do you mean by this.

but even external links are getting deleted so what's the point on doing that?

I don't think so. External linking to translation/summary in the first post is accommodated by the rule. So they're not going to be deleted (Well, of course unless the said works getting licensed). Or are you talking about something else here?

If you don't want to, I can create Shomin Sample blog that host the summary (and translation if someone interested). Or if there are already one, we could ask the mod to add that link to the first post.

[RaymondSageClark]

@ices no need to make a blog for that, at least people can manage the info on MP but the problem stay there. I'm a user so I can't go against mods or admins because the "rules", so in the end everything stay in the same way, and that is people can't talk about the main source even if a forum is a place to do that.

Rules can be interpreted in various ways, but sometimes people use the most convenient intepretation for themselves. This is the case, so let's end this here no need to discuss anything else.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

I'm a user so I can't go against mods or admins because the "rules", so in the end everything stay in the same way, and that is people can't talk about the main source even if a forum is a place to do that.

That's just not the case at all. This forum existed long before Light Novels and Web Novels became popular. Back in the day, we were dealing with anime, and it wasn't posted right in the threads. Rather our main site was a listing of fansub torrents, and had links to the groups' IRC channels. Likewise with manga, scanlations weren't posted right in the threads -- they were hosting on scanlations sites and again in IRC. So when it comes to Light Novels and Web Novels, the same general rules apply. The translations won't be posted right in the thread, but linked out. The issue is that, with novels (being written text), the summaries can be so extensive that it's basically reposting the book itself. So in those particular cases, we're just saying to treat them like fansubs, scanlations, and other fan translations and have them be linked out. That's it. (Otherwise, you could take any translation, change a few things here and there, and just say it's a summary not a translation.)

You can completely talk about the main source in the threads here just as people always have. The only difference is that rather than being interlined in the threads so that people have to dig all over the place to find them, summaries and fan translations will be grouped in one easy to find location in the top post. It's fundamentally no different than how this forum has always handled anime, manga, and every other medium.

This arrangement was actually a suggestion made by a fellow forum member some months back when were considering how to handle this issue. I think that, once everyone gets used to this scheme, it'll be much more convenient for everyone to find the translations and summaries, and in the event that a work is licensed, we won't have to delete anything but the link. Otherwise, if people post the summaries in-line in the thread, we'd have to delete all the posts and the summaries would be gone.

Originally Posted by RaymondSageClark

Rules can be interpreted in various ways, but sometimes people use the most convenient intepretation for themselves. This is the case, so let's end this here no need to discuss anything else.

We've always tried to be open and clear about what the rules are and how they're interpreted. If you have specific concerns that haven't been addressed, I'd be happy to address it. But no, it doesn't mean that we'll agree with every opinion offered, obviously.

[larethian]

Are translations of lengthy interviews from anime official sites allowed?
Something like this: http://owarino-seraph.com/article/interview4.php

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by larethian

Are translations of lengthy interviews from anime official sites allowed?
Something like this: http://owarino-seraph.com/article/interview4.php

I think translations of official interviews and promo material are okay. I would still link to the source.

[Marcus H.]

Just dropping this here.

Brain Knows Better: Three Reasons Why the Psychology of Spoilers is Wrong

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Just dropping this here.

Brain Knows Better: Three Reasons Why the Psychology of Spoilers is Wrong

Given your recent pro-spoilers posts on this subforum, I'm a bit surprised at you "just dropping this here".

Did you read the editorial at the link you provided, including the comments that came after it, including replies by the editorial-writer himself?

It's not at all pro-spoiler. In fact, it makes a pretty good case for being anti-spoiler.


Unsolicited spoilers are bad. Some people like being kept in anticipation, some people like being surprised, and some people like speculating about what may happen next in the narrative. Maybe you don't care about any of this, which is fine, but some other people feel differently, and you should respect that.

[Marcus H.]

I did. The article writer, despite posting a scientific study on the effects on spoilers, remained stubborn that spoilers are bad.

Unsolicited spoilers are bad. Some people like being kept in anticipation, some people like being surprised, and some people like speculating about what may happen next in the narrative. Maybe you don't care about any of this, which is fine, but some other people feel differently, and you should respect that.

I am capable of being considerate towards spoiler-cautious people because I'm an anime-only viewer for the longest time, but I don't think the mods should continue pandering to those people who complain that spoilers are the devil even if some of the spoiling happens when careless people read blocks of text labeled clearly as spoiler territory.

There was a time when Animesuki sufficed with spoiler tags. That could have stayed that way instead of trying to segregate source fans from anime-only fans because people don't understand that text under spoiler tags shouldn't be read by people who don't want to be spoiled.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I did. The article writer, despite posting a scientific study on the effects on spoilers, remained stubborn that spoilers are bad.

Saying he "remained stubborn" doesn't do justice to his arguments. He raised good points in his argument that spoilers are bad.

One important point he alluded to, is that there's a difference between being spoiled on a work that you've been actively looking forward to and have emotional investment in, and being spoiled on a particular short story that you may or may not care all that much about to begin with. This difference does show that the study he cited does have its flaws (or at least limitations).

Plus, the potential benefits of being spoiled on a work can be gained by simply doing a re-watch or a re-read. I would argue that you can get the best of both worlds by not being spoiled, and by engaging in a re-watch/re-read if you want to have a fuller appreciation of the work in question.

[DOmus]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Plus, the potential benefits of being spoiled on a work can be gained by simply doing a re-watch or a re-read. I would argue that you can get the best of both worlds by not being spoiled, and by engaging in a re-watch/re-read if you want to have a fuller appreciation of the work in question.

Though I enjoy some series if Im spoiled, pretty much the ones that I know I wont finish or are not even worth more time that what I gave to the anime, I dont like to be spoiled or I wont even want to be bothered by it. But some series that do have a lot of trajectory and there are a lot of content to know and understand more of it, to me, its pretty good to be spoiled.

One example of it would be Fate, last season in F/UBW, which has some holes and info that might be relevant, meant for me to look for info in wikis or forums and watch other adaptions that migh spoil that anime. Another thing I did was go to the threads for the VN readers to see another perspective that might clarify some doubts of mine, which made the adaption even a better ride than what would have been if I just remained attached to the anime pov like others.

What Im trying to say is, even when there are ones that dont like to be spoiled, there are others that might enjoy and appreciate it at that current time, so I dont see why we need to go beyond the spoiler tags if they are used as how they should.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I did. The article writer, despite posting a scientific study on the effects on spoilers, remained stubborn that spoilers are bad.

I don't think you understand what scientific really means. Also, if the writer was remaining stubborn, he/she would have not addressed the points at all, or attempt to mis-characterize them like you are doing right now to said article. Just because that person had thoughts that were questioning the study doesn't mean that they were remaining stubborn, unless you were assuming he was wrong in the first place.

I am capable of being considerate towards spoiler-cautious people because I'm an anime-only viewer for the longest time, but I don't think the mods should continue pandering to those people who complain that spoilers are the devil even if some of the spoiling happens when careless people read blocks of text labeled clearly as spoiler territory.

That assumes that the mods are specifically "pandering" to that particular group and to no other. You don't know that. Plus, it's pretty dishonest to suggest these things with words like "pandering" like those people are engaging in some kind of agenda and you certainly aren't going to convince the target audience when these things are included.

[Marcus H.]

Gotta admit: I'm a bit mad that the Spoiler Policy has gotten to this point. I could imagine how many users have been banned for good just because they want to point out that the anime-only viewers are handing out inaccurate opinions based on the anime. Also, how many characters have been misjudged just because the anime has failed to properly deliver the characterization of the source? (I don't have that many examples, but I guess Manami from Oreimo and Misaka Mikoto from Index/Railgun counts to that.) Much vitriol has spilled because of this.

Call it irrational hate and being stubborn because I clearly dislike the stringent rules on the Spoiler Policy. That's not to say that I'm capable of breaking the rules myself; it's just that it felt like it's never gonna solve the problem (which stems from the user level and affects even the mods) and some people have been smacked for another person's mistakes.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Gotta admit: I'm a bit mad that the Spoiler Policy has gotten to this point. I could imagine how many users have been banned for good just because they want to point out that the anime-only viewers are handing out inaccurate opinions based on the anime. Also, how many characters have been misjudged just because the anime has failed to properly deliver the characterization of the source? (I don't have that many examples, but I guess Manami from Oreimo and Misaka Mikoto from Index/Railgun counts to that.) Much vitriol has spilled because of this.

You do know what an adaptation is, right? You don't have to equate characters on an adaptation/derivative work with their respective characters on the original source. The best way to point out the differences would be in a retrospective thread, such as in an overall impression thread, or after the show has ended for shows that don't have their own forums.

That said, I do agree that the spoiler tag should be usable for those people who want to be spoiled, as long as the description for the tag is not a spoiler in itself. But maybe this is more to do with ease of moderation.

[Marcus H.]

You do know what an adaptation is, right? You don't have to equate characters on an adaptation/derivative work with their respective characters on the original source. The best way to point out the differences would be in a retrospective thread, such as in an overall impression thread, or after the show has ended for shows that don't have their own forums.

In most cases, adaptations are designed to be advertisements of the original work, so a level of similarity between the anime and source must be maintained. Calling Hestia in the Danmachi anime different from the manga or LN is just absurd, for example, and Sunrise made sure that the Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon anime series is an accurate depiction of the LNs, and even made sure that some of the memorable illustrations of the LNs are captured exactly as it looks.

On the other hand, there's KyoAni's adaptations, which make sure their stories are entirely different compared to the source. (As if that helped the original source gain traction.)

In the case of Index, some avid fans of Mikoto from the Railgun anime start asking about Mikoto's level of relationship with Touma and her uselessness in the LNs. Unfortunately, Railgun has anime-original content, so those who only watched the anime end up misinformed about Mikoto's role in the light novel.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

In most cases, adaptations are designed to be advertisements of the original work, so a level of similarity between the anime and source must be maintained. Calling Hestia in the Danmachi anime different from the manga or LN is just absurd, for example, and Sunrise made sure that the Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon anime series is an accurate depiction of the LNs, and even made sure that some of the memorable illustrations of the LNs are captured exactly as it looks.

On the other hand, there's KyoAni's adaptations, which make sure their stories are entirely different compared to the source. (As if that helped the original source gain traction.)

Here's the thing, though. If you really think that they are not different, then you wouldn't have to spoil some viewers in order to correct their misconceptions because the adaptation would correct them in due time.

If, on the other hand, it's something that the adaptation omits, then they either want the viewer to see the original source for it or they didn't think it's necessary.

Either way, you don't have to try to force-feed viewers on whatever additional information the original source may have.

The exception being...

In the case of Index, some avid fans of Mikoto from the Railgun anime start asking about Mikoto's level of relationship with Touma and her uselessness in the LNs. Unfortunately, Railgun has anime-original content, so those who only watched the anime end up misinformed about Mikoto's role in the light novel.

In this case, they specifically wanted information on the original source. This is where I think an appropriately-labeled spoiler tag should be usable. Nonetheless, even if that's not the case per whatever rule that may exist, you can still share it after the show ends, or in a more appropriate thread, or even privately.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

In most cases, adaptations are designed to be advertisements of the original work, so a level of similarity between the anime and source must be maintained. Calling Hestia in the Danmachi anime different from the manga or LN is just absurd, for example, and Sunrise made sure that the Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon anime series is an accurate depiction of the LNs, and even made sure that some of the memorable illustrations of the LNs are captured exactly as it looks.

On the other hand, there's KyoAni's adaptations, which make sure their stories are entirely different compared to the source. (As if that helped the original source gain traction.)

In the case of Index, some avid fans of Mikoto from the Railgun anime start asking about Mikoto's level of relationship with Touma and her uselessness in the LNs. Unfortunately, Railgun has anime-original content, so those who only watched the anime end up misinformed about Mikoto's role in the light novel.

Some Kyoani adaptations are quite faithful though and sometimes they take liberties that are only possible by understanding the source material like their Key adaptations, it would seem. At least there's a feeling that they didn't change things for the fuck of it.

The problem I see here and this isn't speaking only to you is that beyond mere facts, many elements of characterization are subject to intepretation. The problem is when people have so called figured it out and decide their approach is the only correct interpretation. You might think many are giving out facts but when people rush to the defense of their waifu or whatnot, there is an apparent agenda and it gets annoying.

Furthermore I can't help but think too much of these spoilers is trying to speak on behalf of the author. How do you know the author didn't want these changes? Maybe your idea of right and wrong isn't is as expected.

In the end I am sure many people do have insight on a material they spent a lot of time on. But as someone that admits my own biases-- in fact my posts try to heavily sway people, I find it unlikely people could drop hints and spoilers in such a impartial and analytical manner with no intruding agendas. No offense, but from what I've seen, I cannot name one poster that would be capable of it to an acceptable level if the rules were only a bit more lenient. So it would be an exception to the rule.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

I could imagine how many users have been banned for good just because they want to point out that the anime-only viewers are handing out inaccurate opinions based on the anime.

None. The only way you can get banned from this forum for this sort of thing is by routinely disregarding repeated warnings from the staff. In which case the problem wasn't that "they only want to point out..." the problem is routinely disobeying the Forum Rules. People can disagree with the rules all they want (and we can debate it in this thread), but everyone still has to obey the rules that are in place. If we tell someone over and over to stop doing this thing that the rules say they must not do, but they keep doing it anyway, then yes, that would get them banned.

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

Also, how many characters have been misjudged just because the anime has failed to properly deliver the characterization of the source? (I don't have that many examples, but I guess Manami from Oreimo and Misaka Mikoto from Index/Railgun counts to that.) Much vitriol has spilled because of this.

So what? When anime-only viewers make judgements based on the anime, they're only judging the anime. If that means that their opinion on the whole franchise sours as a result of the anime's poor characterization, that's still the anime's fault. It doesn't necessarily reflect on the novels because that viewer has not read the novels. And if they wanted to inform themselves about this issue, it's infinitely easier to find such discussion than to avoid it. And even here on this forum, we totally allow this sort of discussion in the proper thread and/or with the proper consideration. We have never once said discussion of spoilers or comparisons is forbidden, just that there are rules about what can and cannot be posted in the anime threads.

If someone wants to be a novel reader, it's not hard. If someone wants to seek out information to inform what they're seeing in the anime based on the source, it's also not hard. But if someone wants to judge the anime on its own merits independent of the source, they should be given the opportunity to do that. That's all the rules are trying to accomplish: to give people the choice. And yes, that means they have the choice to remain "ignorant" and be "wrong" about some things if the anime doesn't make it clear to them.


The current policy is not nearly as draconian as you make it sound.

Spoilers are permitted in limited circumstances, provided that they are posted under clearly marked spoiler tags. These exceptions include:

• Posting and discussing content found on official sites or blogs.
• Answering specific questions about past or current events using knowledge of the source material, so long as these questions will not be answered by the adaptation itself in the future. (We strongly encourage posters to discuss any spoilers via PM, rather than in the work's discussion thread.)
• Comparing events in an adaptation to the way they were presented in the source material or other adaptations. (Discussions about the source material itself, or extended comparisons should be directed to the appropriate manga/novel/game thread.)
• Comparing one story to another, when such comparisons are useful or informative. (These spoiler tags must always be labeled with the name of the other work whose spoilers it contains.)

Regardless of these exceptions, any comment that discloses an event, character, plot or other information before it is revealed within the specific work being discussed is expressly forbidden whether or not it is behind spoiler tags.

This really is not that hard. Anything that will be revealed later = never in an anime thread, okay in source threads. Things that were skipped = okay in clearly-marked tags, better in source threads. Generally speaking, we want to keep discussion of the source in the source threads so people who want that info can seek it out, and people who don't want that info can avoid it.

It seems to me that the main issue is that source readers have to stop being selfish and lazy, and instead have to take the minimum amount of effort to be considerate of anime-only viewers. I've been a source reader for shows before and I know it takes some effort, but is perfectly possible. It starts with the realization that, no, some people don't want to be corrected, and you have no right to force that down their throats. A 100% anime-only opinion is completely valid, as long as they're not claiming it's an accurate reflection of the source or of other adaptations (which most do not, because most of these sorts of people don't care about the source material).

The whole intention of the rules is so that people with differing preferences regarding source knowledge can coexist in harmony. And, unfortunately, that requires those who know outside information to be considerate to those who wish to avoid said information. This is not "pandering" to anyone. And at the same time, this in no way precludes people who wish to seek out this information from having an easy way on this very site to do so. We just ask that people use the proper thread or use appropriate tags.


All this may seem kind of harsh as a reply, but I really am open to constructive suggestions on how the policy can be improved. However, if your disagreement comes down to "I don't see why we should have to watch what we say in the open because of those people", then you've missed the entire reason we have this policy in the first place. "Those people" have just as much right to be here as you do, and as much as you seem worried about the policy shoving "well-meaning" source readers out, the opposite would do just as much damage.

Originally Posted by monster

That said, I do agree that the spoiler tag should be usable for those people who want to be spoiled, as long as the description for the tag is not a spoiler in itself. But maybe this is more to do with ease of moderation.

This is actually the policy we had before this one; spoilers simply had to be tagged with proper labels. The reason we changed the policy is because, for certain shows, the result was threads that went for pages upon pages with nothing but hidden spoiler-tagged text as source readers completely drowned out the discussion and were talking more about the source than the anime. This is why the policy has a prominent sentence near the top that says "anything outside the scope of a topic is considered a spoiler," and really the whole policy is more about keeping threads on-topic than it is purely about spoilers.

Our goal is that anime threads stay focused on the anime. We allow limited comparisons to be tagged, but the goal is that these not take over the conversation or go on for pages upon pages. Such tangents would be redirected to the source thread. That is not to say that we must pretend that no other material exists, but references to it should be brief, relevant, tagged, and such that it won't spoil future content. That way the thread itself can stay focused on discussing the actual anime, not other topics that belong in their own threads.

Again, I'm all for ways this can be refined and clarified (we have actually tried a number of different approaches and methods over recent years in response to this challenge), but it's worth bearing in mind why it was changed in the first place.

[Marcus H.]

As you said before, there's no perfect solution to this. However, I feel that the problem mainly lies with the poster itself: No matter how many specified tags are created, all those are prone to misuse, deliberate or unintentional, and these tags are instant landmines to anyone who is overly cautious of spoilers.

A 100% anime-only opinion is completely valid, as long as they're not claiming it's an accurate reflection of the source or of other adaptations (which most do not, because most of these sorts of people don't care about the source material).

Hah. You're fortunate that you haven't seen some "hyperextending opinions" that base their opinions of the source from the anime adaptation, regardless of anything. That's a really potent source of vitriol, especially when "ignorance versus source elitism" comes into play.