Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[pampz21]

Countering Cocytus?
Lina has the almigthy Parade that counters all kinds of target base magic; unless Cocytus can be cast as an AOE; Parade is is one of the best counter magic. Its only weakness so far is people who can "see through it" Like Erika's intinct or AOE magic.

[Zoks]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Countering Cocytus?
Lina has the almigthy Parade that counters all kinds of target base magic; unless Cocytus can be cast as an AOE; Parade is is one of the best counter magic. Its only weakness so far is people who can "see through it" Like Erika's intinct or AOE magic.

Erika can't see through it. She doesn't have to, because she doesn't use that kind of magic. Parade prevents attackers from directly targeting the user with their magic. If you are using AoE magic or just amplifying your own abilities (like Erika does) it doesn't give you any advantage. What Erika saw through was how Lina moved around while using it, in that she still moved the same using the magic as she did in her daily life. It doesn't mean she can suddenly target her with a spell to knock her back or something.

And I reread the part about Lina thinking about how Miyuki didn't use Cocytus in their duel. Don't forget, when the two dueled Lina wasn't using Parade because the two girls were busy throwing their big spells at each other. The problem isn't that Parade cannot counter Cocytus, but rather Parade cannot counter the other spells in Miyuki's arsenal so it's pointless to keep it up. If she was specifically trying to counter Cocytus then Parade would likely be effective.

[bietchie11]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

but you do know that the narrator in the story is unreliable right? I.E. take things with a grain of salt.

If that is the case for you, then you should just stop reading it....
You read a story BUT don't actually believe what the story tells you then what the heck are you reading it for?

Beside, my main point is: The original source is always the most trustworthy source! Always!!!!
If you think the LN is bad, the wikia is worse.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

If that is the case for you, then you should just stop reading it....
You read a story BUT don't actually believe what the story tells you then what the heck are you reading it for?

Beside, my main point is: The original source is always the most trustworthy source! Always!!!!
If you think the LN is bad, the wikia is worse.

you do know that the unreliable narrator is a TvTrope right?

[somerand]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

you do know that the unreliable narrator is a TvTrope right?

Yeah, TV trope. There is nothing suggesting that Mahouka has an unreliable narrator. This is just something that you're stating to be fact when there is no evidence. All the narration matches accurately with the rest of the story, the only time we have seen thoughts conflict with facts in the story is when it comes to Tatsuya's inner monologue. Tatsuya has been seen underestimating himself through internal thoughts and isn't always entirely accurate, but Tatsuya isn't the narrator. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the Mahouka narrator is unreliable. Provide some evidence in the form of quotes if you want to prove it, instead of just stating it like a fact.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by somerand

Yeah, TV trope. There is nothing suggesting that Mahouka has an unreliable narrator. This is just something that you're stating to be fact when there is no evidence. All the narration matches accurately with the rest of the story, the only time we have seen thoughts conflict with facts in the story is when it comes to Tatsuya's inner monologue. Tatsuya has been seen underestimating himself through internal thoughts and isn't always entirely accurate, but Tatsuya isn't the narrator. There is absolutely nothing suggesting that the Mahouka narrator is unreliable. Provide some evidence in the form of quotes if you want to prove it, instead of just stating it like a fact.

You just provided me the evidence within your own paragraph. durrr lol
Besides that fine but I'll give my opinion instead, Tatsuya is actually the narrator.

[somerand]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

You just provided me the evidence within your own paragraph. durrr lol
Besides that fine but I'll give my opinion instead, Tatsuya is actually the narrator.

Firstly, what I gave an example of is an inner monologue. It's not proof of an unreliable narrator in any way shape or form. A characters inner thoughts can obiously be wrong in any series, Mahouka included, but not the narration.The only things Tatsuya has ever been shown to be wrong about are things involving himself. It has been mentioned that he isn't a good judge of himself as he doesn't understand his own and other peoples emotions. Inner monologues and narration are different things.

Secondly Tatsuya clearly isn't the narrator of many statements. Here is an example of some narration in Mahouka. The final paragraph at the end of volume 7.


"The Scorched Halloween.

Future historians would look back upon this day and refer to it as such.

It was a turning point in military history, just as it was a turning point in history.

This was the day that magic was proven to have surpassed mechanical, nuclear, and biological arms.

Bared before all was the truth that magic alone determined the outcome between victory and defeat.

This was the true dawn of history for the race known as Magicians, in all of its high glory and darkest suffering. "

This is narration in mahouka, it's clearly not Tatsuya narrating this. The narration in mahouka clearly isn't unreliable, there isn't a single example of it being unreliable in the entire series.



You want another example of narration? The entire untouchable chapter is a narrator recounting the events of the Dahan incident. The narration isn't Tatsuya and it certainly isn't unreliable unless you mean to question an entire chapter in the series... There is a big difference between Tatsuya being wrong in internal monologues and the actual narration being unreliable. See if you can find a single example of unreliable narration in mahouka and post a quote.

[Ravagerblade]

no time atm to look for quotes but IMO a lot of the narration gives off the unreliable narration feel. Also when you say Inner monologue of Tatsuya I didn't see him always talking instead it's the narration doing the wording IIRC.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by bietchie11

You didn't ask.

How about reading the actual LN texts?

In Original (Japanese), would be even better.

I know i always cite the actual LN texts to support my arguments.

I wasn't addressing myself to you so you can't fault me for not asking you.

You missed the point. Your comment about wikia was, true but that's just it. It added nothing to the conversation. Look at Jirachier's post when he tells someone that Wikia is full of faults. He supported his argument.

[nekomancey]

Originally Posted by pampz21

Countering Cocytus?
Lina has the almigthy Parade that counters all kinds of target base magic; unless Cocytus can be cast as an AOE; Parade is is one of the best counter magic. Its only weakness so far is people who can "see through it" Like Erika's intinct or AOE magic.

My theory is that Cocytus does not actually target your eidos at all, the record of your 'phenomena' in the material world, but your 'mind', the pushion information body in the information dimension.

The parasites, for example, are described as having no eidos to target and thus tatsuya and most magicians cannot really damage them. But cocytus manages to destroy them.

This is why I do not believe that defensive abilities like contact-type gram demolition, parade, or phalanx could counter cocytus either, though on her own (without linking to Tatsuya to access elemental sight as she did with the parasites) she would probably need your physical target coordinates to access your 'mind' and target cocytus so Parade is more likely to succeed. It is probably the most powerful spell in mahouka, perhaps even more dangerous than tatsuya's decomposition abilities. Since the pushion information body that constitutes the 'mind' seems to be a separate information body from the physical bodies 'eidos'. Eidos is defined as a record of 'phenomena', or physical objects/forces, in the idea. So I do not think things that fortify your eidos offer protection from cocytus.

I also currently think that Cocytus is one of the few things in the world that could actually kill Tatsuya, as the MCA is likely (inferring from various descriptions in the novels) part of the 'mind' in the idea, and while Tatsuya will auto-self-restore no matter what happens to his body (he repeatedly implies that even having his head or heart destroyed, a full self-restoration would trigger and he would repair), the program/spell which resides in his natural MCA in his 'mind' would be frozen/destroyed by cocytus. Also since Tatsuya's memories are not rewound when the body is restored, we can assume that self-restoration only affects the eidos of his physical body and has no effect on the 'mind' in the idea, so even if self-restoration activated it wouldn't actually repair the damage from Cocytus.

Basically, Miyuki is one scary princess.

[Echizen777]

Well, Outer Systematic magic interferes with the mind so there is nobody able to resist this so far, only Counter magic can work.

[Nicaea]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Well, Outer Systematic magic interferes with the mind so there is nobody able to resist this so far, only Counter magic can work.

What kind of counter magi would be strong enough though?

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Nicaea

What kind of counter magi would be strong enough though?

Gram Dispersion, Phalanx, Parade. Any counter magic should be enough but it's the skill of the user who is more important, not many magicians could be able to stop Miyuki's strongest magic, theoritically Tomitsuka should be able to counter it but I think her power will overwhelm his armor. The best counter so far is Parade IMO.

[nekomancey]

That would be my assessment as well, as parade not only obscures the physical location from targeting, but provides a dummy eidos file in the idea to further mess it up.

Tatsuya sensory linked to Miyuki though, where she could target Cocytus directly through the idea, is probably completely unstoppable.

And I still harbor doubts that contact type gram demo or phalanx would provide any protection. The sequence would need to be targeted and destroyed before it launches by gram demo or dispersion, and considering miyukis cast time and the needed time for dispersion, hitting her with gram demo right at the start of the cast is likely the only counter.

So really miyuki and tatsuya are the only ones who could defeat each other.

[Zoks]

Or Lina could just kill Miyuki with her strategic magic. It's not like she has to give Miyuki a fighting chance.

[Blonddude42]

Could someone remind me what FAE theory stands for and explain it too? I think I remember it having something to do with when magic is cast the laws of physics momentarily stop or something like that. Or is that something else entirely. Or did I misunderstand a large part of one of the LNs?

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Blonddude42

Could someone remind me what FAE theory stands for and explain it too? I think I remember it having something to do with when magic is cast the laws of physics momentarily stop or something like that. Or is that something else entirely. Or did I misunderstand a large part of one of the LNs?

Free After Execution. Basically it's a mean to modify the magic after activating it. Lina uses Heavy Metal Burst with Brionac but has the leisure to modify after activation thanks to it.

Spoiler for Quote:

"FAE — Free After Execution."

That name conjured deep emotions.

"In Japanese, it is called the theory of controlling phenomenon after it had been created but Free After Execution is a better way of expressing it. The phenomenon produced as a result of being transformed by magic is already a phenomenon that was not originally in this world. Immediately after transformation the shackles of the laws of physics are loose. Perhaps it would be better if I changed it to a short time lag exists before the laws of physics reassert themselves after an event produced by magic."

The totally inappropriate explanation made in a lecturing tone created a mysterious void in the middle of this battle to the death.

"According to the theory of FAE, if plasma constructed by magic which is supposed to scatter chaotically can be easily given directional movement then even without flash freezing, plasma can go from a super heated state to normal temperature for an arbitrary period of time, rendering it harmless. It is restrained from scattering naturally because maintaining fixed state is also possible. That is the method."

Lina had forgotten about interrupting Tatsuya’s long winded speech and had just grasped Brionac‘s hasp.

"Nevertheless, if you use the time lag in the law of physics presupposed by the FAE theory, it is only an instant. It is considered impossible for a magician who has just made the invocation to add new conditions to the newly constructed phenomenon."

At this point, Tatsuya made a mid-shrug like expression with his face.

"That’s true. There’s less than a millisecond to define the phenomenon which isn’t possible for a human."

And his face showed a completely sincere wonder.

"To do that……within a containment barrier isolated from the influence of the world’s physical laws, magic is executed to expand that gap in the law of physics."

This was a manifestation of the emotions of the boyish part of Tatsuya, who desired to follow the path of science.

"I humbly praise this person. To bravely evade the law of physics. The person who constructed ‘Brionac’ is a true genius."

[Blonddude42]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Free After Execution. Basically it's a mean to modify the magic after activating it. Lina uses Heavy Metal Burst with Brionac but has the leisure to modify after activation thanks to it.

Spoiler for Quote:

"FAE — Free After Execution."

That name conjured deep emotions.

"In Japanese, it is called the theory of controlling phenomenon after it had been created but Free After Execution is a better way of expressing it. The phenomenon produced as a result of being transformed by magic is already a phenomenon that was not originally in this world. Immediately after transformation the shackles of the laws of physics are loose. Perhaps it would be better if I changed it to a short time lag exists before the laws of physics reassert themselves after an event produced by magic."

The totally inappropriate explanation made in a lecturing tone created a mysterious void in the middle of this battle to the death.

"According to the theory of FAE, if plasma constructed by magic which is supposed to scatter chaotically can be easily given directional movement then even without flash freezing, plasma can go from a super heated state to normal temperature for an arbitrary period of time, rendering it harmless. It is restrained from scattering naturally because maintaining fixed state is also possible. That is the method."

Lina had forgotten about interrupting Tatsuya’s long winded speech and had just grasped Brionac‘s hasp.

"Nevertheless, if you use the time lag in the law of physics presupposed by the FAE theory, it is only an instant. It is considered impossible for a magician who has just made the invocation to add new conditions to the newly constructed phenomenon."

At this point, Tatsuya made a mid-shrug like expression with his face.

"That’s true. There’s less than a millisecond to define the phenomenon which isn’t possible for a human."

And his face showed a completely sincere wonder.

"To do that……within a containment barrier isolated from the influence of the world’s physical laws, magic is executed to expand that gap in the law of physics."

This was a manifestation of the emotions of the boyish part of Tatsuya, who desired to follow the path of science.

"I humbly praise this person. To bravely evade the law of physics. The person who constructed ‘Brionac’ is a true genius."

Thanks for that passage, it really helped.

Have the LNs ever stated specifically where the MCA is? I think I remember it not being part of the physical body but I can't think of any specific information to support that claim.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Blonddude42

Thanks for that passage, it really helped.

Have the LNs ever stated specifically where the MCA is? I think I remember it not being part of the physical body but I can't think of any specific information to support that claim.

Magic Calculation Area, it is a mental function of the magicians when they are using magic, the magic sequences are formed thanks to this and if they have a CAD it will be converted so start the activation sequence. I don't remember all the time it was mentioned but there is an explanation in volume 5 background.

Magic Calculation Area and Magic Calculation Zone are the same.

[Blonddude42]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Magic Calculation Area, it is a mental function of the magicians when they are using magic, the magic sequences are formed thanks to this and if they have a CAD it will be converted so start the activation sequence. I don't remember all the time it was mentioned but there is an explanation in volume 5 background.

Magic Calculation Area and Magic Calculation Zone are the same.

You must have misinterpreted what I asked. I know what it is, I was trying to find where in a magician it is more specifically than in the unconscious (or is it subconscious) mind. For example, is it part of the pushion body that makes up the soul? I only ask because it is says that even if all of Tatsuya's body was destroyed his regrowth would still kick in which suggests to me that the MCA isn't part of the physical body. This also makes me feel Miyuki's Cocytus attacks the pushion body because it attacks the mind and the mind is unaffected by the regrowth of the physical body (by this I mean the person's memories aren't affected).

My thoughts are probably closer to speculation than anything else but the data fits for me. Half of the questions I'll ask will be just to see other people's interpretations or opinions. I'll just phrase it like I'm an idiot.