Fate/stay night Heaven's Feel Movie Discussion Thread

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by Touko

Why not Kawai? He composed the original tracks.
Pegasus Meteor Bomb without "Sword of Promised Victory" is not right.
UBW/Nine Lives without "Emiya" is not right.

...ngh, my heart is conlicted, you do have a point.

The Shirou vs. Kotomine man-fight sounds good on paper, but I think it is gonna be boring.
It was just Shirou flailing about and getting punched by Kotomine.

Well it needs to have Kotomine Kirei's complexity from HF if nothing else, sure a lot of it was explained in Zero but it would be a real step down if he was more Fate or UBW, particularly UBW.

[Jaden]

Hmm, from the hype material it's kinda looking HF-ish. I'm surprised because I thought it'd be the Fate route for sure. It'd make the most sense because:

- Fans of the VN want to see a Heaven's Feel anime the most, but they are fans so they'll love it anyway.

- Of the three, I think it's the best stand-alone story.

- It's the best sequel for the Fate/Zero anime. The main villains and some of the heroines are the same, and the ending has that karmic feel when you think of Fate/Zero as the beginning of the story.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Jaden

Hmm, from the hype material it's kinda looking HF-ish. I'm surprised because I thought it'd be the Fate route for sure. It'd make the most sense because:

- Fans of the VN want to see a Heaven's Feel anime the most, but they are fans so they'll love it anyway.

- Of the three, I think it's the best stand-alone story.

- It's the best sequel for the Fate/Zero anime. The main villains and some of the heroines are the same, and the ending has that karmic feel when you think of Fate/Zero as the beginning of the story.

-Not actually a reason. If fans want HF then give them HF.

-Fate is just a typical (well typical for this setting) Holy Grail War. You could say it is standalone but it doesn't really go any deeper than the basic Grail War. The only thing it solves is the straggler of the fourth grail war.

-HF would actually be better as a sequel to Fate/zero because it's the only one of the routes that goes into the deeper issues with the Holy Grail War and loose ends from Fate Zero such as Zouken and his schemes. Sakura's upbringing under Zouken and what it means for the Grail War among others. Fate is just a typical Holy Grail War that merely deals with Gil and Kirei.

[allfictions]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

That's what they did before. It didn't work out. HF, UBW, and Fate though are incompatible with each other so it just creates a mess when you try to combine stories.

On the other hand, I guess that's not the same as saying that a mixed route has to suck.

All it'd need to show is the major plot relevations from each route that'd reveal all of the story, mainly the Fate route's major bits, Archer's identity, and the Grail's nature.

The fact the anime poster has the greater grail and not the lesser ones shown in Fate and UBW means that HF is going to play a major role in this anime one way or the other. So unless they do all 3 routes, HF has a high chance of being the main route they follow but adding in some extra scenes to expand the characterization in it more.

The thing with Heaven's Feel is that it really would not work as a sequel to Fate/Zero (as Ufotable has stated they want fans to feel the connection to Fate/Zero) due to what happens to Saber in HF (And from the preview it looks like Saber and Shirou will be our main leads)

It's also the only route where Gilgamesh, the biggest bad guy in F/0, goes out like a chump

Originally Posted by GDB

snip

I dislike all incest equally, so making it as if I hate the idea of IllyaxShirou specifically is wasted on your part. I was adressing the specific part of his post where he said incest can never be wrong, which I argued against on a general scope, not talking about Ilya and Shirou specifically.

If I actually hated IllyaxShirou, I would have said something along the lines of ''Fuck Illya, I don't understand why people wanted her to live and shit. She dies in a year anyway and remember the kind of shit she does to Shirou on his bad ends as well her attempts to kill shirou. She is a fucking psychopath, and making her 18 is only a way so lolicons don't feel as guilty.'' That would be hating, with an extra serving of bashing. Nevermind she really didn't have a chance, being raised by the Einzberns, who basically told her 'You father abandoned you for this boy,' while training her to be a murdering girl and all. Expecting her to be a normal, well adjusted person is just ridiculous.

See, I'm even partial to Fate Ilya's fate. Sure she's going to die well before her time, but she gets to spend her last year with the only loving family she has left. With friends, with the potential of being happy for the first time in her life really with no demands put on her.

So drop your passive agressive attitude, my opinion is not going to magically deconvert IlyaxShirou shippers all of the sudden, you can rest easy tonight. And just a reminder: criticizing is not the same as hating.

[Jaden]

Are they making this anime for the fans ? This studio seems like a pretty ambitious one. They must be thinking of wide appeal and not just fanservice.

You may be right in that Zero leads best into HF though. People that come into this after watching Zero would find it difficult to completely ignore Sakura's story. There are downsides though...like how it doesn't really do justice to Gil and Saber.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by allfictions

The thing with Heaven's Feel is that it really would not work as a sequel to Fate/Zero (as Ufotable has stated they want fans to feel the connection to Fate/Zero) due to what happens to Saber in HF (And from the preview it looks like Saber and Shirou will be our main leads)

It's also the only route where Gilgamesh, the biggest bad guy in F/0, goes out like a chump

And Fate does? All it does is go through the typical Grail War while dealing with Gil and Kirei. It doesn't use any of the major plot threads of Fate Zero. You can't go into HF plot threads in these because Sakura NEEDS to be the main love interest for everything to take place. You try to do that without making her he main love interest and you just have deen FSN 2.0 lol.

UBW covers the same issues Fate did but has more to it by going over Shiro's issues left behind by the Fourth war and the consequences it has on his future. Yet it too still fails to answer the important plot threads left behind by Fate Zero.

HF actually works the best as a sequel because it goes over all the plot threads. It ties up the loose ends left behind by Fate Zero. Gil was nerfed yes but they did say they were adding new scenes which is probably just to expand on the other servants in the beginning.

Without HF you can't make a true sequel to Fate Zero because neither of them will deal with Zouken who is the biggest issue left untouched after Fate Zero even more so than Gil and Kirei which can only be solved in HF which needs to focus on Sakura as a love interest for it to be touched.

Originally Posted by Jaden

Are they making this anime for the fans ? This studio seems like a pretty ambitious one. They must be thinking of wide appeal and not just fanservice.

You may be right in that Zero leads best into HF though. People that come into this after watching Zero would find it difficult to completely ignore Sakura's story. There are downsides though...like how it doesn't really do justice to Gil and Saber.

They already said they planned to add in new scenes which gives them the opportunity to expand on both Gil and Saber. They could just add more to the beginning of the story focusing more time on the servants before heading into the HF route.

[Rising Dragon]

The only major Fate/zero subplot the Fate route goes through is Saber's issues, I think.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

The only major Fate/zero subplot the Fate route goes through is Saber's issues, I think.

also deal with the stragglers lol

here's how I see it in terms of finishing plot threads from Fate/zero

Fate
Resolves Sabers issues
Deals with the stragglers Gil and Kirei

UBW
Deals with the stragglers Gil and Kirei
Goes deep into Shiro's problems and the result it is heading to.
Helps Saber with her issues

HF
Deals with Gil and Kirei (even if Gil was worfed)
Goes deeper into Kirei's plans
Goes into Sakura's issues
Deals with Zouken.
Deals more with the problems of the Grail War as a whole.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by allfictions

The thing with Heaven's Feel is that it really would not work as a sequel to Fate/Zero (as Ufotable has stated they want fans to feel the connection to Fate/Zero) due to what happens to Saber in HF (And from the preview it looks like Saber and Shirou will be our main leads)

It's also the only route where Gilgamesh, the biggest bad guy in F/0, goes out like a chump

And Fate and UBW don't work as sequels to Zero because they ignore Sakura and Zouken entirely, and miss out large chunks of Rin's story too.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And Fate and UBW don't work as sequels to Zero because they ignore Sakura and Zouken entirely, and miss out large chunks of Rin's story too.

and fail to solve the underlying issue with the grail since they never knew about the greater grail in those routes. They just destroyed a minor grail that could be replaced.

[Rising Dragon]

IIRC, isn't the Heaven's Feel ritual dismantled by Waver in the Fate and UBW routes?

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

That's what they did before. It didn't work out. HF, UBW, and Fate though are incompatible with each other so it just creates a mess when you try to combine stories.

And this is why they are now doing "new and original story-line" with Nasu helping them.
They are going to create new, 4'th story-line for the anime, combine best parts from all 3 routes an integrate them into one. This is the best way to made anime out of Fate without making 3 separate anime. ( not to mention most profit as fans of all 3 routes will be happy, well not all but majority will if they do it right ).
Basically a '2006 remake' as they call him, only with Unfotable doing it instead of DEEN.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

IIRC, isn't the Heaven's Feel ritual dismantled by Waver in the Fate and UBW routes?

Yes, some few years after 5'th war ended. He do it together with Rin. So using this they can pretty much avoid HF entirely and go with UBW and Fate alone.

[sona-nyl]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And this is why they are now doing "new and original story-line" with Nasu helping them.
They are going to create new, 4'th story-line for the anime, combine best parts from all 3 routes an integrate them into one. This is the best way to made anime out of Fate without making 3 separate anime. ( not to mention most profit as fans of all 3 routes will be happy, well not all but majority will if they do it right ).
Basically a '2006 remake' as they call him, only with Unfotable doing it instead of DEEN.

As said several times. It is not confirmed that it's an original route. The only thing we know is that there will be new scenes.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

And this is why they are now doing "new and original story-line" with Nasu helping them.
They are going to create new, 4'th story-line for the anime, combine best parts from all 3 routes an integrate them into one. This is the best way to made anime out of Fate without making 3 separate anime. ( not to mention most profit as fans of all 3 routes will be happy, well not all but majority will if they do it right ).
Basically a '2006 remake' as they call him, only with Unfotable doing it instead of DEEN.

it only said that there would be new scenes. NOT that it was a new route.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yes, some few years after 5'th war ended. He do it together with Rin. So using this they can pretty much avoid HF entirely and go with UBW and Fate alone.

The anime poster guarantees HF content because of the greater grail so that logic is invalid. It is located in no route but HF and requires the HF route and Sakura just to get to. also simply taking out the holy grail war doesn't guarantee that Zouken is just going to give up. He did some horrifying things to get that that point. He's not simply going to just lay back and die because the disassemble the holy grail war.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

IIRC, isn't the Heaven's Feel ritual dismantled by Waver in the Fate and UBW routes?

Yes, but only 10 years later. It's never shown in-story.

Originally Posted by Brother Coa

Yes, some few years after 5'th war ended. He do it together with Rin. So using this they can pretty much avoid HF entirely and go with UBW and Fate alone.

Not really, because the deconstruction of the Great Grail is another story in itself (it's meant to be quite a big battle), and doing that still doesn't cover Sakura's situation in any way (although it could potentially involve her). They could do a version of that story, yes, but it wouldn't be FSN, it would be completely different and, probably, lack the servants.

And, no, showing in an epilogue that the Great Grail is deconstructed 10 years later isn't a continuation of Zero, it's just a cop-out.

[ukulelembo]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

And Fate and UBW don't work as sequels to Zero because they ignore Sakura and Zouken entirely, and miss out large chunks of Rin's story too.

Any route will not work as sequel to Zero simply because whole FSN isn't written in this way. FSN was created as a single work, not expecting something like Fate/Zero created later. Thus completely faithful adaptation of FSN can't work as sequel to Zero, no matter which route they adapt.
Saying that, for example HF route is more suitable than others just because it deals with Sakura, Zouken, Grail or anything else..., is bullshit. Who says that exactly this is main subject of the story? Also HF on the other hand ignores Saber's story (no, Alter really isn't conclusion), Gil, and other things. So we're still on the same page of problem.
If they really want make sequel to Zero, then they must create a new story in any case. And it doesn't matter if it's a completely new story or heavily modified one of the routes.
For example, they must rework nearly all story twists (fact that Kotomine is villain, relationship between Sakura and Rin, Ilya and Kiritsugu, Gil's presence, corruption of Grail, etc.) because thanks to Zero, we already know all of this. Add more story connections (Saber's behavior towards Ilya) more suitable placement for unraveling the past (fact that Kotomine killed Tokiomi, truths about Matou family, etc.)
Also generally the whole story of FSN was originally concepted as two separate titles. Fate/Stay Night (Saber and Rin routes) and Fate/Other Night (Sakura and unrealized Ilya route). On bases of this you can clearly see main difference between these directions of story. Stay Night should follow the normal course of the Grail War just with interventions of Masters and Kotomine's manipulations, Other Night should follow failed Grail War directed by Zouken's manipulations.
Here will be crucial, which of these story directions Ufotable will want to follow, than which route. Current promotional materials gives rather feeling that we can expect something like Stay Night's direction with little portion of Other Night's direction than anything else. So we can only guess how much space themes of individual routes each gets.

[Cherry_Lover]

To make anything that could remotely be called a "sequel to Zero" they have to cover Sakura's story, and also the details of the Grail, neither of which are mentioned in Fate.

And, perhaps FSN was originally conceived as two separate stories, but it was not written in that way (Fate and UBW does allude to events in HF) and Zero certainly wasn't. Further, there is still significant difference even between Fate and UBW, so even mixing those two routes is difficult.

I agree that the two are distinct different directions, but I think Zero takes more from the HF direction than the other two routes, because it covers things like the corruption in the Grail in more detail. The only thing that Fate and UBW really covers from Zero is Saber and related concepts (and even that is mostly in Fate), the rest is pretty much entirely ignored. Even Shirou's ideal is covered in a more Zero-like manner in HF than in the other routes.

[sona-nyl]

I actually think mixing routes are possible if you place HF last and don't return to Fate and UBW afterwards. Adding HF as something in the middle of the story won't work well though (Unless you rewrite things a lot of course but that goes for anything). Pretty much anything from Fate and UBW except the finale could probably be added to the story before going HF since very few characters that are important in HF are involved with things in other routes that would prevent them from being involved in it afterwards.

[Cherry_Lover]

Yeah, it's possible to run through the HF route but add a bit more relating to the other servants at the beginning. Hell, HF does have a reasonable amount of Saber scenes already, they're just all in the first few days, and Archer's identity is actually revealed (it's just not focused on, because the game assumes the reader already knows).

The difficulty, though, is giving Saber any real conclusion, and in making Gil anything other than a demonstration of how powerful Sakura is (since the events around his death are an important catalyst for her turning Dark). I think if you tried it you would risk doing what the original anime did for HF, which is making the Fate and UBW elements just filler with no real relevance.

You're right that HF does kind-of need to be at the end if it's there at all, though. It's the final route of the VN and provides more finality to the Grail War in general than the other routes do, and once you've started on that route it's pretty much impossible to back out of it without destroying Shirou and Rin's characters.