Macross Delta - Episode 26 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

The most shocking and refreshing twist is that Master Herman survived the show. Maybe he was too self-aware of his death flags and was able to dodge them all. Though granted, he was highly favored by the staff.

Originally Posted by Tempester

I'm laughing right now because that's true. Berger was pretty much an antagonist for most of the show providing tons of essential resources for Windermere, then he saw how things were going south and preemptively switched to the "good side" and pretty much got off scott free with a load of money and two pissed off former business partners.

He didn't switch at all. Berger's Foundation basically profited from the war of all sides (they sold to Windermere, Chaos and the NUNS), and now he's surely going back to Heinz for that sweet fold quartz. He was just not into Roid's Let's all Become Vajra because Protoculture said so plan. There's zero profit about it. Anyway, from what Yasuda implied in Febri, iirc, one of the draft ideas of the war was a third faction final villain which got dropped, so we got evil NUNS and Crazy Roid with Delta and Aerial Knights drifting around and fighting each other, instead. I'm fairly sure they had probably planned to Epsilon to be the original villains but later dropped it when the anime got into production. Maybe, if they do a movie, they'll go with it. It'll be probably be more tolerable than schizo Roid and one dimensional bomb-happy and corrupted NUNS. NUNS were too much of non-characters and Roid was waaay too goofy with his glasses collection and idol viewing to be threatening.

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

As for a peace negotiations between Windermere and the New United Nations, it'll be a long time for it to happen given the atrocities committed by both sides. However, I think the real winner on this conflict is Berger Stone and the Epsilon Foundation as they amassed huge profits for selling their products.

You don't know how politics work, huh? NUNS will surely blame some unfortunate people or one of the spooky green lit trio. "We had no idea about dimensional weapons." And probably show some kind of overhaul lipservice, if they had other colonies onto them. Heinz can easily lay the blame on Roid for every of the transgressions. He was the one who declared the galactic war, turned off the negotiations in the first place, killed King Gramia (most damning proof of his betrayal), used a child as a tool of war, came up with the Var idea, and was later slain by Heinz's heroic older brother Keith to save the entire galaxy. Thus, shake hands and force smiles while secretly planning to kill each other when chance arises. Roid's pretty much the perfect scapegoat (and works fairly well too, considering most was his idea). Keith himself will be probably be remembered as a galactic hero.

[Father Hentai]

There is one thing in this episode what was bothering me. Could Roid by purpose have caused Heinz to crystalize so that he can use the throne of the stars? I mean. He knows that the system would drain power of his rune and before he would sit on that throne, either the king or his family would sit on it? Could it be that damaging Heinz health was part of his coup d'etat?

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

There is one thing in this episode what was bothering me. Could Roid by purpose have caused Heinz to crystalize so that he can use the throne of the stars? I mean. He knows that the system would drain power of his rune and before he would sit on that throne, either the king or his family would sit on it? Could it be that damaging Heinz health was part of his coup d'etat?

Nah, I think Roid actually loved Heinz and Keith as his family (or um, 'family' like Makina and Reina with Keith I guess because I do raise my eyebrows to the "like brothers/sisters" in both cases). He was pretty hurt when Keith kept rejecting him. Look how he crystallized himself for being hooked to the protoculture machine. He wanted to give him eternity too.

You can call Roid crazy, but he was always following Protoculture's wishes. The shrine seemly pointed him the way as it did with Mikumo who was also absorbed in her 'duty' until Walkure snapped her out her funk. Roid's family, iirc, came from Protoculture priests and ruins protectors in Windermere. The Protoculture apparently meant for their 'children' apparently to become like this as the Vajra, with Windermerians' fold quartz runes uniting the galaxy with that mechanism and their pet priestess' singing triggering the delta waves.

[foxbox360]

Want if a revolution or civil war happens on Windermere in the future ?

[Kokojin]

shoji kawamori said that Delta will break with tradition...delta hasn't broken with tradition in any way.

heres for the 0.0000001% chance it breaks with tradition and does a season 2 to flesh out this horrible horrible situation.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kokojin

shoji kawamori said that Delta will break with tradition...delta hasn't broken with tradition in any way.

I vaguely recall some people writing that a HayaFrey ending would break with Macross tradition for winning pairings. I recall a couple reasons given for why HayaMira would have been the end pairing more keeping with Macross tradition.

Maybe that's what Kawamori met?

Plus, is there anything quite like Walkure in other Macross shows? In other words, an entire group of idols working together, rather than solo idol stars?

[Father Hentai]

Kawamori broke the traditional line.

In delta the end pairs are pilot and songstress, while traditional peering would be pilot and officer. So, instead Peering Misa and Hikaru he made Minmei and Hikaru. It's nothing out breaking but a change of what we are used to be.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Kawamori broke the traditional line.

In delta the end pairs are pilot and songstress, while traditional peering would be pilot and officer. So, instead Peering Misa and Hikaru he made Minmei and Hikaru. It's nothing out breaking but a change of what we are used to be.

But... singer/pilot was the couple of every Macross aside of the original (and II, I guess, because Sylvie didn't end up with Ishtar ):
Sara and Shin.
Mylene and Gamlin (because we know for sure Basara isn't Mirage's uncle, so if Mylene ended up with someone it's him).
Myung (technically, she did sing) and Isamu.
Sheryl and Alto.
And you can argue Mina Forte and Leon Sasaki has an edge over Aisha and Leon despite Macross 30 being a game you can choose the end couple, because Aisha features in the Delta novel and there isn't any sign of being in a relationship with anyone, and she's left SMS, and yeah I'm slowly reading 30 novelization and it seems heading in Mina's direction so far (it's the same author of Frontier and Delta novels, he unambiguously set his pairings decisively in general, IMO).



I don't think he meant that. Iirc, what Kawamori said was something like the three elements (love triangle, mecha stuff and music) won't come together as we expect them to do. Maybe Mirage's (and sometimes Hayate's) completely... pale presence in the plot is because he didn't feel like he'll have his triangle members as weight on other aspects? While traditionally the three of them are plot players. Though, IMO, Hikaru and Misa were just as important in the original Macross (not in DYRL, mind you). Global, Britai, Minmay, Max and Milia were far more relevant characters from a plot perspective and merits. Hey even Kaifun was probably more important than Hikaru considering the impact of his character Shao Pai Long. Delta novel only mentions Hikaru as remembered in general for his iconic and romanticized vow to protect Minmay which was repeated in history.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I vaguely recall some people writing that a HayaFrey ending would break with Macross tradition for winning pairings. I recall a couple reasons given for why HayaMira would have been the end pairing more keeping with Macross tradition.

Maybe that's what Kawamori met?

IMHO The whole "tradition" thing in final pairing is pretty silly on fans part who see patterns in something. Macross 7 already destroyed and deconstruct the so-called "love-triangle" and "final pairing" with love-polygon or hexagon and Basara not romantically-interested in anybody until the show ended . And Macross 7 is Kawamori's priced work to say the least.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Plus, is there anything quite like Walkure in other Macross shows? In other words, an entire group of idols working together, rather than solo idol stars?

As much as Macross follows some vague “tradition”, their universe and technology are always progressing in each series/OVAs/movies. In this case, the first squad to fight aliens with music is Basara and his Fire Bomber band (dubbed “Sound Force”) in Macross 7. During this period, came Walkure’s very early predecessor called “Jamming Bird” after the NUNS was inspired by Basara & Fire Bomber who fought off the mighty Protodevilns with their songs & singing. But these hastily-put-together “instant-cup” idols didn’t do that well due to their lack of courage and determination (and probably also spiritia energy) to sing in front of (giant) monsters threatening to kill them .

[Darthtabby]

Originally Posted by Benigmatica

As for a peace negotiations between Windermere and the New United Nations, it'll be a long time for it to happen given the atrocities committed by both sides. However, I think the real winner on this conflict is Berger Stone and the Epsilon Foundation as they amassed huge profits for selling their products.

I can see their being substantial post war opportunities in the cluster for both Epsilon and Chaos. Ragna in particular is probably going to be reluctant to entrust their defense to NUNS after all the shit they pulled. Actually, one wonders if the planets of the cluster might end up becoming a truly independent economic and military alliance.

As for the episode itself: I found it rather weak. While I think people can be overly quick to compare Delta to Frontier, the final episodes invite comparison. I found Frontier's finale much more exciting. Delta's felt like it had too much naked telepathy and not enough kick ass dogfighting. About the only edge I'd give to Delta's finale is it doesn't require the audience to read between the lines in order to resolve an over hyped love triangle.

Of course, my impression could be a bit skewed by the fact that my enthusiasm for Delta dropped a lot in the second half.

[Thess]

Delta had a better romantic resolution, I suppose, but worst in other aspects of the finale.

Though Mikumo's "I want to sing with all of you" was kind of touching. She sounded like a child trying to reach her older sisters, such a pleasant change from her mysterious know-it-all aura.

[Convoy]

I'm surprised that the NUN would be willing to allow Epsilon to continue operating in NUN space given that Epsilon sold military hardware to Windermere. One would think that the NUN would strongarm them into submission given that they're willing to resort to other kinds of shit.

[Incest Emblem]

This might sound like heresy to some, but after watching the last episode again, I think I prefer Delta with 3 singers and Kaname as the lead rather than 5 singers with Mikumo as the lead.

Actually, adding Makina back in was fine, but it does ruin the symmetry around a lead singers. That might not be such a bad thing, particularly considering Kaname is self-admittedly not a shining star.

It's just Mikumo that kind of bothers me. I think it has a lot to do with the weird hairdo. >_>

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

It's just Mikumo that kind of bothers me. I think it has a lot to do with the weird hairdo. >_>

You mean her squid-hair?

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[Kokojin]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And Macross 7 is Kawamori's priced work to say the least.

are you being sarcastic or serious? i assume you meant to say Prized* but moving on, my spider senses are tingling regarding this statement? how can macross 7 be his most prized work when he delegated it to that female director/script i forget her name?

or did you mean its his most praised work? if so didn't macross 7 have the most division from the reviewers and fans?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Kokojin

are you being sarcastic or serious? i assume you meant to say Prized* but moving on, my spider senses are tingling regarding this statement? how can macross 7 be his most prized work when he delegated it to that female director/script i forget her name?

or did you mean its his most praised work? if so didn't macross 7 have the most division from the reviewers and fans?

Yeah, typo. I meant “prized” .

IIRC in the interview where Kawamori talked about his past experience doing some parts in Gundam franchise (he designed the GP-Gundam series, you see), he also said that SDF & DYRL (especially their endings) are not exactly what he prefers. He doesn’t like ending enemies by killing them with weapons. He prefers that they can be swayed to lay down their arms (with songs & singing) and make peace. That's why in that same interview, he pretty much expressed that Macross 7 is the one series that fit his vision the most and one of his favorite Macross entries (if not the favorite).

And you might not believe this, but Macross 7 was big and popular in Japan during its airing. It’s arguably as big in popularity as Frontier (if not more). It was so popular that the audience were practically asking for more. That’s why, aside from the 49-episode series, Macross 7 also has side-story OVA series called Encore, a movie (The Galaxy is Calling Me!) with Emilia Jenius, and even sequel OVA series called Dynamite 7. And the icing on the cake is the compilation movie called Macross FB7 with Frontier’s characters released in 2012 proving that Macross 7's popularity is still there. Basara is so damn popular that Sheryl uses Basara’s trademark shout of “Listen to my Song!!!” as her own. So far, if we measure popularity based on sheer numbers of animated productions (and merchandise sales IIRC), no other Macross outings is as popular as Macross 7.

BTW, those who are divided are mostly from English-speaking fans afaik.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

He prefers that they can be swayed to lay down their arms (with songs & singing) and make peace.

That only works if the story doesn't at the same time said the war itself is 100% justified. That's what makes Delta different; it is the first Macross series that tried to justify waging war itself. Declaring war in a time of peace, no less. So you have a situation where the story tries to tell us that it is good to end war, but then also tell us it is good to START a war.

[-Antares-]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That only works if the story doesn't at the same time said the war itself is 100% justified. That's what makes Delta different; it is the first Macross series that tried to justify waging war itself. Declaring war in a time of peace, no less. So you have a situation where the story tries to tell us that it is good to end war, but then also tell us it is good to START a war.

Uh, no? The war was only "justified" in that Windermere had been wronged majorly before in a very warlike and non-peaceful way. There was no point in the series where it was ever implied that what Windermere was doing was "right" or "good." Just that there was a non-trivial reason. You know, like a motivation. This is very, very different from saying war is right, okay, or acceptable.

Kawamori is a major pacifist, and that theme is in all of his works. You don't need to read his interviews or whatever to see that. He practically slaps you in the face with it in every single show he writes/directs. Except maybe Nobunaga the Fool. That was just... I don't even know what I watched there. The point is, he wants people to communicate with each other and end conflict peacefully. If you can't see that despite the whole "slapping you in the face with how pacifist this is" then you need to go and watch Arjuna. You really cannot get through Arjuna without seeing that, and maybe it will open your eyes to the types of things Kawamori actually believes in and puts into his other works.

[Matts]

Originally Posted by Darthtabby

Ragna in particular is probably going to be reluctant to entrust their defense to NUNS after all the shit they pulled. Actually, one wonders if the planets of the cluster might end up becoming a truly independent economic and military alliance.

... And right next to NUNS they can also go right ahead and exclude Windermere, after the shit that they pulled (mind-control, mass genocide, imposing a primitive totalitarian regime run by a 9 year old, without asking questions etc.).

God. This show was a mess. The best part for me, about episode 26, that it's over.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

The point is, he wants people to communicate with each other and end conflict peacefully.

And MY point is, that Delta also told us it is perfect fine to declare war on innocent populations as long as you are mad enough. Since Delta never once had Windermere considered the war itself to be a mistake, this is the only conclusion possible.