Mahouka [LN/M] - Character Speculation/Theories: Tatsuya

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by zerozeronine

I'm comparing the artwork from what is in the text with Miyuki.

When their on the stage? I guess so, but fact for me is he's better looking than what whoever is saying he's just mundane.

[zerozeronine]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

When their on the stage? I guess so, but fact for me is he's better looking than what whoever is saying he's just mundane.

In most of her scenes,she was supposed to be a scene stealer even with Mayumi around,but as I said she doesn't look the prettiest to me in the art,especially in the anime.

I still stand that even in the LN art those I mentioned is are all more good looking than Tatsuya.The aanime/manga does make him more good looking than most of the LN art though.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by zerozeronine

In most of her scenes,she was supposed to be a scene stealer even with Mayumi around,but as I said she doesn't look the prettiest to me in the art,especially in the anime.

I still stand that even in the LN art those I mentioned is are all more good looking than Tatsuya.The aanime/manga does make him more good looking than most of the LN art though.

I just looked through some of the Illustrations; There are only a few that could be better looking than him. In some of the colored ones he looks better than the others as well. but whatever I'll say it again "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder". (are you basing him/it on handsome, sexy, bishi?) (Mine is Handsome)

[zerozeronine]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

I just looked through some of the Illustrations; There are only a few that could be better looking than him. In some of the colored ones he looks better than the others as well. but whatever I'll say it again "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder". (are you basing him/it on handsome, sexy, bishi?) (Mine is Handsome)

Handsome and bishi probably.You could add that his eyes are sometimes cold/emotionless.

[Ravagerblade]

Originally Posted by zerozeronine

Handsome and bishi probably.You could add that his eyes are sometimes cold/emotionless.

That's not his fault completely.

[bakato]

I'd call him handsome on the basis that he's got that protagonist look. It's his seemingly normal features along with his expression that gives him his charm,

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

They beat him in close combat WHEN magic is involved and he's not using Trident, and most likely he was also implying just fighting without decomposition too, because really there is no way either of the 3 could beat him once it enters the equation, especially not Yanagi.

This really doesn't help answer my query and just reconfirms my original point, especially since magic has always been involved in close combat fights between magicians in this novel.

Aside from that, we do not yet know if Tatsuya's martial arts skills are better or worse than Kazama's or Yanagi's. His Ninjutsu alone may be better since he has been called Yakumo's favourite or best pupil. But that's just one school of martial art.

Why do you say especially not Yanagi, everything in the novel shows he is an anti-personnel magician who excels at CQC?

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Yeah I completely agree, that fight left a bad impression on me. He is supposed to be one of the top 10 specialist in close combats in the ENTIRE world, so after all these decades of experimenting on creating magicians, polishing martial arts and magic, researching them etc etc, we got 10 people of everyone and he's one of them.

Lu was literally near-invincible due to his skin and armour enhancing magics, strolled through gunfire and crushed Japanese magicians and their mobile amours in close combat with just his hands and feet. No other magician has been shown able to mimic such feats with just their bare hands and martial arts. Is this not inline with everything you're saying he should be?

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Yet he loses to what 4 teenagers who haven't even reached the full potential of their power ? Yeah sure Mari and Mayumi are of the big3, but so what ? you have to keep the scale in mind, this is them fighting one of the best 10, not the best 1000 or something. the author should've AT the very least gave each of them a grave injury from the fight, they all got out of that fight with just a few bruises and scratches. I guess being one of the top 10 in the world doesn't hold much value if 4 strong individuals can beat you.

While I can understand you found his losses and what happened disappointing, but your facts about who beat him don't match with what I read in the novel.

Spoiler for From what I remember...:

1st Naotsugu gouged out his side with a sword, and he still continued to fight on and even started to press his opponent before he had to dodge a surprise attack of 2 heated air pressure blades, which he dodged successfully until they exploded. This to me was an awesome set of scenes, but his rival for being one of the world's best already gave him a severe sword injury. If he already could have taken on another top CQC expert AND their backup, his skills would never have been compared with Naotsugu's in the first place.

The 2nd time in the end he easily ignored Mari and went straight for the dangerous sniper. It was clear that with the simultaneous combination of Tatsuya's overwhelming counter-magic and Mayumi's strengthened magic sniping he was overpowered with raw magic power, by 2 magic prodigies from Japan's 2 strongest magic families. Mari took advantage of their combo magic attack and drugged him before cutting him with 3 magic pressure and metal blades, an attack that Tatsuya stated even he couldn't have dodged, which would especially be true if had been knocked silly first by magic and drugs.

3rd time, he beat Everyone down he could reach quite easily with single strikes. And Erika outright stated she lost. So I'm not sure where in the novel you read he was beaten by them. Even when Mari displayed her highest level of skill in her specialty, it was countered and she got beat down.

Yes they unexpectedly had few injuries, but it was all explained in the novel and if he was actually able to successfully attack them they would all be dead. His hands tear flesh and metal apart. But Erika used a giant sword as a shield together with gravity-type magic, Leo's also used defensive magic, was saved by sniper barrage fire and is known for surviving an accident that should of torn him apart with nothing worse than a few small fractures due to his genetics. Mari was Lu's specialties were in magic enhanced physical defense and bare-handed martial arts, not in counter-magic or reading a person's genetic code. He didn't want to be drugged again and so back-flicked away from Mari's gas attack while kicking her into the air at the same time. But she had armour on.

Ultimately, the novel stated Mayumi, the magic sniper he couldn't even see, protected her colleagues and beat him by exploding magic dry ice particles in his lungs. Since he dodged or blocked everything else she fired, she had to slip invisible gas particles inside his body to actually attack him successfully. Everyone who engaged him in CQC was defeated by him instantly except Naotsugu or when he had to dodge magic sniper fire.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I see it like that. A normal battle is a battle when they can all go all out. Tatsuya compared his friends to the 101 and it was confirmed they are weaker Yanagi and Kazama, Yakumo was never mentioned. In a serious battle as long as Tatsuya has not his Trident he can't beat these 2. In pure martial arts without magic involved he is better than Kazama and Yanagi. But compared to Yakumo they are nigh-equal in everything excepted strategy, which is the reason why Tatsuya never wins…..
Maybe I should replace pure martial arts by CQC. But with what we know.
CQC= Martial arts + Technique + Physical prowess + Strategy. With these 4 factors considered, Yakumo is definitely a better fighter at CQC since Tatsuya is not vastly superior to him in any category.

In this novel CQC between magicians means all that plus magic. I believe magic is shown as used in every single CQC scene so far in the novel, except maybe the very first fight at the temple in v1, but only because they skipped describing the majority of that fight. Suggesting he might be better at martial arts than Kazama and Yanagi has no real relevance if magic is always used in CQC as seen in the novel.

We have no real idea if Tatsuya's pure martial arts are better than Yanagi's or Kazama's. Yakumo is a Ninjutsu specialist and so are his students. There is no real comparison of their martial ats skill with Kazama and Yanagi given in the novel, only comparisons limited to Yakumo and his Ninjutsu students. This would not indicate if Tatsuya is better than Yanagi or Kazuma at martial arts. We only have the details that Yakumo beats him every time in their CQC fights, and Tatsuya said he cannot beat the other 2 without his Trident - a specialized long-range magic aid.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya is a top close combat magic fighter, it's just in order for him to do so he has to rely on his innate magics, regrowth and decomposition like he did while fighting the dolls in vol13, at the time he was trying to obliterate them but if he uses decomposition in a sparring contest with Yakumo that's not sparring anymore.

Maybe, however in the novel they only mention him getting beaten by Yakumo and state he would beat Yanagi and Kazama without Trident. Those 3 are known for their CQC skills and are the only comparisons we have so far. Even in his fight with Tomitsuka he used pure magic to win in the end. His lack of regular magic talent definitely means his close combat magic offensive skills are limited.

So I agree he might be one of the top ones, but any reliance on his innate magics to me feels like reliance on his raw magic power rather than close combat magic skill. And I don’t think Tatsuya used any decomposition magic except maybe as counter-magic in V13.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

If you think about it, it took Yakumo quite a bit of time to get away from tatsuya, had tatsuya wanted to he could've surrounded his arms with decomposition any time he wanted which would easily allow him to win in that fight.

This is assuming Yakumo cannot use common counter magics and was born without the natural magic defense all magicians are supposed to have. There is a reason Tatsuya designed his Trident decomposition spell. Because strong enough wide area interference and data fortification can counter his decomposition magic. It would not be as easy as just doing as you mentioned.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

Ill be using these definitions, in my argument.

S-Rank: Something that is so superlative that it cannot be described by any traditional ranking system. It is A++, 11/10, six stars, and three thumbs up. In rare cases, something can be so exemplary that it becomes SS or even SSS-rank.

World class: ranked among the world's best; of the highest caliber

This guy, Lu gonghu, his defeat in each and every fight was due to the students who were along for the ride. A ranking has been done and hes both one of the top 5 CQC magicians in the entire world and an S-Rank operative. Its all a matter of scale. Hes been ranked compared to the best in the world, so how is it that he losses 3 times due to mere students..

Hes been ranked as an S-class individual. Something that cannot be described by normal ranking systems, its just that good. And nothing was seen that gave that impression, with his 3 failures. Its not how the character failed. It's just that he failed. Because of the students. When we are lead to believe differently.

In my mind, Lu Gonhu was not worth either ranking, he doesn't fit either definition. Skilled? certainly. but neither as one of the top 5 CQC magicians in the world nor a s rank operative. He didn't even give out much injuries to the students. Nothing more then small flesh wounds or bruises at the most. He was quite the disappointment.

Okay some students beat him and it was disappointing. I personally don't see the point of emphasizing they are students or teenagers when the story has always been about high school magicians, and I believe age has no relevance if the attacker has a deadly weapon they know how to use. But this doesn't really cover what I was saying.

Are you saying strolling and tearing through machine gunfire, amoured vehicles and magician blockades like they weren't there, easily beating down everyone in close combat except 1 person who is also a top world ranking magic CQC expert, while countering ambushing sniper/backup fire, while being heavily injured with nothing but one's bare hands, is Not Enough superlative and expected only from top world-rankers in magic CQC?

If it is yes, then I am truly surprised and I suspect in this novel we will never see someone that matches or surpasses Lu who actually meets your expectations of a world rank close combat magic expert. I can understand if you say his performance was disappointing, but using the argument of his opponents were teenagers doesn't make sense to me when this has always been a magic high school story and he was not beaten by them in CQC.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

Who cares if there exceptional. There teenagers. Hes been both ranked compared to the best in the world (which btw, includes Japan) in CQC combat involving magic, and was put in the top 5.

Don't know if any of this matters if you give the teenager a deadly weapon they can use and the CQC magic expert has no chance of reaching the teenager before the deadly weapon is used against them.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

And I should add here, Mari, a CQC magician was instrumental in all of his defeats.

Yes she twice delivered the finishing blow..... after he was fist heavily injured and occupied by other world magic-rankers like Naotsugu in close combat magic, Tatsuya in counter-magic and Mayumi in magic sniping. I personally fail to see any problem with the idea of someone successfully ambushing and taking advantage of a wounded world CQC magic ranker who was already in a bind facing other world magic rankers.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

And the first thing you'd expect a CQC magician operative to deal with is how to deal with sniper's, given that's his weak spot. After-all, as an operative you'd expect him to deal with snipers in his line of work. And he couldn't do a thing.

We must have read something with the same name but differing storylines since I definitely read about him blocking, dodging and adapting his tactics in each scene with Mayumi's sniper-fire and even Mari's gas attacks. However instantly countering someone who can cause an explosion in your lungs requires more than close combat magic, it requires similar raw magic power.

Originally Posted by Ultraviolet X

You'd also expect him to run into foes that are exceptional magicians, and know how adapt and deal with the situation. and he didn't do it.

Dude, in this novel you should understand by now that if you encounter exceptionally powerful magicians who have you targeted, you do not adapt, you RUN or instantly DIE. No matter how great your magic aided close combat skills in the world are, in an upfront confrontation a person who can kill you from long distance with their mind can only be countered by a similarly exceptional super power.

[Ultraviolet X]

@ guest2: Thats cool, we have different opinions. Those reasons I stated was why I was disapointed with the character Lu when I first read the Yokohoma arc.

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

lol I never understood why Tatsuya is called mundane looking and w/e along those lines when he's easily the one of the best looking guy in this series. Even if I'm male myself it's in a totally non-sexual way. I think the author/writer is just asspulling with us.

yea, I agree with that, it was bugging me too. It always plays Tatsuya off as "average looking", but he's above almost everyone else in thise series in terms of looks in my opinion.

[Ravagerblade]

Wasn't it implied that Tatsuya does know all the 16 Cardinal Codes besides George?
Seems like he tried to dodge the question no?

[Rava]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Wasn't it implied that Tatsuya does know all the 16 Cardinal Codes besides George?
Seems like he tried to dodge the question no?

It was implied that if he really wanted to, he could find them out and publicize them. Some people choose to draw the conclusion that it infers he already knows as well.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Guest2

This really doesn't help answer my query and just reconfirms my original point, especially since magic has always been involved in close combat fights between magicians in this novel.

Aside from that, we do not yet know if Tatsuya's martial arts skills are better or worse than Kazama's or Yanagi's. His Ninjutsu alone may be better since he has been called Yakumo's favourite or best pupil. But that's just one school of martial art.

Why do you say especially not Yanagi, everything in the novel shows he is an anti-personnel magician who excels at CQC?

Tatsuya's martial arts is better than both, I think that is a pretty obvious thing considering he's Yakumo's favorite student and the latter said it himself that Tatsuya is just as good in that area.

And especially Yanagi because it goes like this Yakumo>Kazama>Yanagi so it's dumb for tatsuya to lose to the third strongest of them without trident.

Originally Posted by Guest2

Maybe, however in the novel they only mention him getting beaten by Yakumo and state he would beat Yanagi and Kazama without Trident. Those 3 are known for their CQC skills and are the only comparisons we have so far. Even in his fight with Tomitsuka he used pure magic to win in the end. His lack of regular magic talent definitely means his close combat magic offensive skills are limited.

So I agree he might be one of the top ones, but any reliance on his innate magics to me feels like reliance on his raw magic power rather than close combat magic skill. And I don’t think Tatsuya used any decomposition magic except maybe as counter-magic in V13.

I rarely take anything Tatsuya says about his own skills at face value, because really he always undermine his own strength or the things he says are very ambiguous it's hard to know what he really means.
Just compare their abilities from what've been shown so far and try to guess what would happen in case of a 1 on 1 showdown.
Also using Tomitsuka as an example doesn't even work to prove a point, he's one of the newly developed counter-tatsuya characters to make Tatsuya look like he's having trouble when he really shouldn't. He defeated all the parasite dolls in vol13 with magic CQC didn't he ?

Originally Posted by Guest2

This is assuming Yakumo cannot use common counter magics and was born without the natural magic defense all magicians are supposed to have. There is a reason Tatsuya designed his Trident decomposition spell. Because strong enough wide area interference and data fortification can counter his decomposition magic. It would not be as easy as just doing as you mentioned.

There is indeed a reason why, because it's more difficult to use against magicians with EXTREMELY high magic power. However even against Lina some of his REGULAR decomposition magics were able to hit her even without being Trident, do you really think Yakumo who's more specialized at ninjutsu would be able to block out Tatsuya's powerful decomposition magic ? No way.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Ravagerblade

Wasn't it implied that Tatsuya does know all the 16 Cardinal Codes besides George?
Seems like he tried to dodge the question no?

He probably knows. Maybe he'll publicize them when he'll turn 18 or he thought of the consequences like with the new Cast Jamming technique. I don't think he is able to use them though.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya's martial arts is better than both, I think that is a pretty obvious thing considering he's Yakumo's favorite student and the latter said it himself that Tatsuya is just as good in that area.

And especially Yanagi because it goes like this Yakumo>Kazama>Yanagi so it's dumb for tatsuya to lose to the third strongest of them without trident.

Why? It wasn't even Tatsuya's opinion on the matter. It was stated by the author, it means that in a magic battle, he can't beat them as long as he has not his weapon, that's not about CQC.

I rarely take anything Tatsuya says about his own skills at face value, because really he always undermine his own strength or the things he says are very ambiguous it's hard to know what he really means.
Just compare their abilities from what've been shown so far and try to guess what would happen in case of a 1 on 1 showdown.

Also using Tomitsuka as an example doesn't even work to prove a point, he's one of the newly developed counter-tatsuya characters to make Tatsuya look like he's having trouble when he really shouldn't. He defeated all the parasite dolls in vol13 with magic CQC didn't he ?[/QUOTE]

Why not just believe in what Tatsuya think himself? It's true that he has a bad opinion of himself but he never actually considered himself weak and his thoughts when fighting another opponents are always objective. He was ready to fight Lina in V9, you think he planned to lose? So far with comparison Yakumo, Kazama and Yanagi don't stand a chance. That's why these comments by the author are useful. We know all of Tatsuya's powers but what about these 3? Yakumo is a Ninjutsu specialist, illusion master and must know many Ancient magics. We don't know much about Kazama and Yanagi as well.
He defeated the parasites but without Pixie's help he would have been unable to see them.

There is indeed a reason why, because it's more difficult to use against magicians with EXTREMELY high magic power. However even against Lina some of his REGULAR decomposition magics were able to hit her even without being Trident, do you really think Yakumo who's more specialized at ninjutsu would be able to block out Tatsuya's powerful decomposition magic ? No way.

Idk if he has an ability to block it but he can certainly dodge, right? He was using Trident against Lina(the weapon), he just didn't use Mist Dispersion with the Loop Cast system. Even multi shots of MD pierced her barrier with difficulty.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Why? It wasn't even Tatsuya's opinion on the matter. It was stated by the author, it means that in a magic battle, he can't beat them as long as he has not his weapon, that's not about CQC.

I'm not discussing what the author said, but its interpretation. Did he mean Tatsuya cannot win with his seal removed ? did he mean Tatsuya can't win when he's going for the kill ? Unless it's explicitly stated it's hard to judge what was meant there, and from what we know about the 3 of them it would make more sense to be a defeat if he's just fighting against them like when he sparred with Yakumo, as in not really trying to kill them, just trying to win.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Why not just believe in what Tatsuya think himself? It's true that he has a bad opinion of himself but he never actually considered himself weak and his thoughts when fighting another opponents are always objective. He was ready to fight Lina in V9, you think he planned to lose? So far with comparison Yakumo, Kazama and Yanagi don't stand a chance. That's why these comments by the author are useful. We know all of Tatsuya's powers but what about these 3? Yakumo is a Ninjutsu specialist, illusion master and must know many Ancient magics. We don't know much about Kazama and Yanagi as well.
He defeated the parasites but without Pixie's help he would have been unable to see them.

Because Tatsuya is always puts down his own abilities, he is not actually that objective when it comes to his powers. And exactly, with comparisons even without Trident they don't stand a chance, that's why we can't take such vague comments for truth. And we do know what Kazama and Yanagi are, they're also ancient magic users.
When he fought the parasites he would've won anyway, just with higher difficulty.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Idk if he has an ability to block it but he can certainly dodge, right? He was using Trident against Lina(the weapon), he just didn't use Mist Dispersion with the Loop Cast system. Even multi shots of MD pierced her barrier with difficulty.

That's the thing, he couldn't dodge, just remember for example the sparring contest between Yakumo and Tatsuya in the vampire arc, they kept exchanging blows for a while before Yakumo got a chance to slip away and use illusion magic, enough time for Tatsuya to cast decomposition on him without any means to avoid it. And assuming he does avoid it which he can't, Tatsuya can just cast AoE decomposition around himself then good luck Yakumo defeating tatsuya. Tatsuya can also just let Yakumo do his illusion then and hit him at which point he'll know his location and kill him. So many scenarios.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Erika and Leo certainly aren't A. But Mayumi and Mari are S IMO. Erika and Leo are way weaker than them. Tatsuya, Katsuto and Miyuki are the only ones at 1st high who are a match for these 2 .

Wait what, are you saying Mayumi and Mari are on the same level of fighting power as Tatsuya/Katsuto/Miyuki ?
That makes absolutely no sense, Katsuto is the heir of his clan, Tatsuya is one of the most powerful magicians in the entire world, how can you compare Mayumi or Mari to them ? Even the combination of both would lose to them. And how is Erika and Leo not A rank ? Especially Erika.(I'm not ranking them according to magic power but fighting prowess, just making sure i clarified that)

[Guest2]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Tatsuya's martial arts is better than both, I think that is a pretty obvious thing considering he's Yakumo's favorite student and the latter said it himself that Tatsuya is just as good in that area.

And especially Yanagi because it goes like this Yakumo>Kazama>Yanagi so it's dumb for tatsuya to lose to the third strongest of them without trident.

My point is what you're saying is just speculation. There is no indication of anything like that given in the novel, and the only comparison given is that they are known close combat magic experts and they can beat Tatsuya without him using Trident. Tatsuya being Yakumo's favourite only applies to Ninjutsu.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

I rarely take anything Tatsuya says about his own skills at face value, because really he always undermine his own strength or the things he says are very ambiguous it's hard to know what he really means.
Just compare their abilities from what've been shown so far and try to guess what would happen in case of a 1 on 1 showdown.

Interesting, I've found Tatsuya constantly making statements and showing behaviour that were quite arrogant when it comes to his combat abilities right from v1 to the present, when he faced down Hattori, the kendo club, Blanche, Leo, Maya, 9 head dragon, the street thugs, Lu, the invading army, Lina, Stardust, the parasites. The only times I read of him being uncertain are against other ridiculously powerful youths also descended from the Ten Master Clans.

In a 1 on 1 showdown Tatsuya would do like he mentioned. Once he gets in a tight spot in a martial bout, I believe he would try Gram Dem or pull out Trident to counter their magic, and then attack with oscillation-type magic, as seen over and over again in the novel. Seeing as they know his abilities, he would likely go with his favourite Gram Disp. rather than Gram Dem.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Also using Tomitsuka as an example doesn't even work to prove a point, he's one of the newly developed counter-tatsuya characters to make Tatsuya look like he's having trouble when he really shouldn't. He defeated all the parasite dolls in vol13 with magic CQC didn't he ?

It wasn't a new thing for Tatsuya to struggle to put down other students in friendly bouts. It was the 4th time, the 3 previous times being in v4. And my point had nothing to do with any struggling, just that his close combat offensive magic skills are limited. My point is Tatsuya often uses pure magic when he can and forgoes martial arts.

As I mentioned previously, he defeated the parasites using copy and pasted magic to reseal them. More destructive methods might have caused the worse case scenario and so he used less powerful CQC attacks. The majority of the parasites except a few at the end fought back using magic and projectile weaponry, rather than CQC.

Originally Posted by Jirachier

There is indeed a reason why, because it's more difficult to use against magicians with EXTREMELY high magic power. However even against Lina some of his REGULAR decomposition magics were able to hit her even without being Trident, do you really think Yakumo who's more specialized at ninjutsu would be able to block out Tatsuya's powerful decomposition magic ? No way.

Many things here I disagree with. The only successful attacks against Lina all involved the CAD Trident. There is no mention in the novel of how high the magic power has to be, only that Tatsuya needs to focus his magic more to break through Miyuki's defense and even that might not work. And ancient magic has greater fire power than modern magic according to the novel. Yakumo was also stated to have phenomenal raw magic power in v3 when training Miyuki.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

He defeated the parasites but without Pixie's help he would have been unable to see them.

Yeah, he needed pixie to quickly locate their positions in the forest and to also anticipate their coordinated attacks.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

I'm not discussing what the author said, but its interpretation. Did he mean Tatsuya cannot win with his seal removed ? did he mean Tatsuya can't win when he's going for the kill ? Unless it's explicitly stated it's hard to judge what was meant there, and from what we know about the 3 of them it would make more sense to be a defeat if he's just fighting against them like when he sparred with Yakumo, as in not really trying to kill them, just trying to win.

For me that's simple. It means that he simply can't beat them as long as he is not using his Trident. It's even a proof that he is way stronger than them. Tatsuya is a modern magician and a modern magician fights with a CAD, he even used it against Blanche, he always fought with it excepted in the 9SC. With or without the seal isn't that important, nobody has enough psion count to rival him excepted Tatsurou.

Because Tatsuya is always puts down his own abilities, he is not actually that objective when it comes to his powers. And exactly, with comparisons even without Trident they don't stand a chance, that's why we can't take such vague comments for truth. And we do know what Kazama and Yanagi are, they're also ancient magic users.
When he fought the parasites he would've won anyway, just with higher difficulty.

Tatsuya is objective but he is too humble and has a bad opinion of himself. He knows very well how strong he is. Kazama and Yanagi are Ancient Magic users but they are not at Yakumo level. Only Kazama is a Ninjutsu practitioner too. I am not saying that Tatsuya would have lost to the Parasites but it would have been way more troublesome for him, I don't think he would have killed them in less than 8 minutes.

That's the thing, he couldn't dodge, just remember for example the sparring contest between Yakumo and Tatsuya in the vampire arc, they kept exchanging blows for a while before Yakumo got a chance to slip away and use illusion magic, enough time for Tatsuya to cast decomposition on him without any means to avoid it. And assuming he does avoid it which he can't, Tatsuya can just cast AoE decomposition around himself then good luck Yakumo defeating tatsuya. Tatsuya can also just let Yakumo do his illusion then and hit him at which point he'll know his location and kill him. So many scenarios.

You are saying that he couldn't dodge but the fact is that this is just sparring and that we know only 2 of Yakumo's techniques(Matoi and Onibi), Ancient Magic is versatile, who knows what he can do? I remember he beat 3 USNA soldiers in fraction of seconds too. Remember that even if their martial level is comparable Tatsuya always lose, this fight in the Visitor arc is the only one which was narrated, their fights don't always follow the same pattern and yet he always loses.

I will respond the questions regarding Erika in the Erika thread.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Guest2

My point is what you're saying is just speculation. There is no indication of anything like that given in the novel, and the only comparison given is that they are known close combat magic experts and they can beat Tatsuya without him using Trident. Tatsuya being Yakumo's favourite only applies to Ninjutsu.

Tatsuya being his best pupil mostly applies to martial arts if anything, ninjutsu has things such as illusions and stuff where Tatsuya isn't that good.

And my point was that you're also speculating, the author said Tatsuya couldn't beat them without Trident but that is so vague that you can't draw any real conclusion from it, was the author talking about unsealed Tatsuya ? was he talking about a simple fight or a fight to the death where Tatsuya can go for the kill ?

Originally Posted by Guest2

Interesting, I've found Tatsuya constantly making statements and showing behaviour that were quite arrogant when it comes to his combat abilities right from v1 to the present, when he faced down Hattori, the kendo club, Blanche, Leo, Maya, 9 head dragon, the street thugs, Lu, the invading army, Lina, Stardust, the parasites. The only times I read of him being uncertain are against other ridiculously powerful youths also descended from the Ten Master Clans.

The only times Tatsuya is ever arrogant is when his sister is concerned somehow, in every other instance he will show humility an undermine his abilities.

Originally Posted by Guest2

It wasn't a new thing for Tatsuya to struggle to put down other students in friendly bouts. It was the 4th time, the 3 previous times being in v4. And my point had nothing to do with any struggling, just that his close combat offensive magic skills are limited. My point is Tatsuya often uses pure magic when he can and forgoes martial arts.

How are his close combat options limited ? a friendly match against Tomitsuka(who is the only person in the entire universe that can block Tatsuya's decomposition magic(except for MB)) is the worse fight you can use as an argument. Against any other fighter in a serious fight he'd excel at it, in fact his magic is perfect for CQC, it's just that using a CAD increases its strength and is better to deal with multiple opponents and fight at long range.

Originally Posted by Guest2

As I mentioned previously, he defeated the parasites using copy and pasted magic to reseal them. More destructive methods might have caused the worse case scenario and so he used less powerful CQC attacks. The majority of the parasites except a few at the end fought back using magic and projectile weaponry, rather than CQC.

They were hitting him with blades and bullets and he was just brushing them off, and tearing through the blades like butter, I have yet to see a better magic fit for CQC more than the combo of Regrowth/Decomposition.

Originally Posted by Guest2

Many things here I disagree with. The only successful attacks against Lina all involved the CAD Trident. There is no mention in the novel of how high the magic power has to be, only that Tatsuya needs to focus his magic more to break through Miyuki's defense and even that might not work. And ancient magic has greater fire power than modern magic according to the novel. Yakumo was also stated to have phenomenal raw magic power in v3 when training Miyuki.

The thing about Miyuki is only when he's not using Trident the spell.

As for Lina, he used Trident the CAD, not the spell, and just that was enough to hit Lina who has one of the most powerful magic power levels in the world. Yakumo has considerable magic power not on the same level, the reason for his prowess lies elsewhere. And when training Miyuki.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

For me that's simple. It means that he simply can't beat them as long as he is not using his Trident. It's even a proof that he is way stronger than them. Tatsuya is a modern magician and a modern magician fights with a CAD, he even used it against Blanche, he always fought with it excepted in the 9SC. With or without the seal isn't that important, nobody has enough psion count to rival him excepted Tatsurou.

Except the seal does matter, it wouldn't if all it was doing was seal half his psions but that's definitely not all it does. It also seals his "magic", I don't know the exact details on what that woul be but it definitely has big impact on his innate magic power.
There is no way Maya will put a seal against Tatsuya just to seal half his psions, which is really only useful when he's using flight magic(the seal was in place way before he invented it) and Gram Demolition, a spell that Tatsuya can already use long enough even in his restricted state.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

You are saying that he couldn't dodge but the fact is that this is just sparring and that we know only 2 of Yakumo's techniques(Matoi and Onibi), Ancient Magic is versatile, who knows what he can do? I remember he beat 3 USNA soldiers in fraction of seconds too. Remember that even if their martial level is comparable Tatsuya always lose, this fight in the Visitor arc is the only one which was narrated, their fights don't always follow the same pattern and yet he always loses.

We don't know all that he can do, but we do know that in the last sparring match against Tatsuya, he couldn't get away from Tatsuya for quite a while, if he had any means to do so faster he would've used them, Tatsuya only needs him to be in his line of sight for like a second to turn him into dust.
Tatsuya always loses WHEN it turns to a magic sparring battle, a battle where he is restricted and can't use any of his innate magics.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Jirachier

Except the seal does matter, it wouldn't if all it was doing was seal half his psions but that's definitely not all it does. It also seals his "magic", I don't know the exact details on what that woul be but it definitely has big impact on his innate magic power.
There is no way Maya will put a seal against Tatsuya just to seal half his psions, which is really only useful when he's using flight magic(the seal was in place way before he invented it) and Gram Demolition, a spell that Tatsuya can already use long enough even in his restricted state.

The seal prevents him to use MB. We know everything Tatsuya can do, Restoration, Decomposition, Elemental Sight, Flash Cast, Far Strike created recently and use other normal magics but weak.

We don't know all that he can do, but we do know that in the last sparring match against Tatsuya, he couldn't get away from Tatsuya for quite a while, if he had any means to do so faster he would've used them, Tatsuya only needs him to be in his line of sight for like a second to turn him into dust.
Tatsuya always loses WHEN it turns to a magic sparring battle, a battle where he is restricted and can't use any of his innate magics.

Both are restricted, if he was serious he may as well have tried to hit him with a spell instead of trying to get away, maybe they would not have been fighting at CQC. Of course he'd take time since their levels are comparable. There was never a precision about in what kind of fight Tatsuya loses about him. He always loses when they spar.

[Jirachier]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

The seal prevents him to use MB. We know everything Tatsuya can do, Restoration, Decomposition, Elemental Sight, Flash Cast, Far Strike created recently and use other normal magics but weak.

That's probably the main thing it seals, but how does it seal it, it's not like you can put a seal on someone and you get a list of things to seal and you select "Material Burst". Considering it is the most difficult spell Tatsuya has in his arsenal of decomposition magic, if you want to seal the most difficult you just restrict his overall magic prowess in decomposition and that way prevent him from using MB, which means all of his other spells are also lowered. We've seen how Miyuki can't use Cocytus while the seal is applied, but when it's released she doesn't just get back Cocytus but her overall magic control is enhanced, something similar must also apply to Tatsuya.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Both are restricted, if he was serious he may as well have tried to hit him with a spell instead of trying to get away, maybe they would not have been fighting at CQC. Of course he'd take time since their levels are comparable. There was never a precision about in what kind of fight Tatsuya loses about him. He always loses when they spar.

Not really, how is Yakumo restricted ? To begin with he's more of an anti-personnel fighter, he doesn't have firepower but uses a combination of ninjutsu/martial arts to fight. He knows there is almost nothing that can really harm Tatsuya considering Regrowth. He did try to get away because that was the best way for him to win the fight, using any spell in the presence of Tatsuya would just result in him countering it with counter-magic. There has never been a fight where the opponent is more/as much as restricted than Tatsuya, not even one.

[LKK]

I'm temporarily locking this thread until I can get the posts sorted out into their proper on-topic character threads.

Edit: Tatsuya thread is now open again. I have moved some posts to the new Lu Gonghu discussion thread, the Erika thread, and the Other Characters thread. Some posts were split between the Tatsuya thread and one of those other threads depending on the main subject of the paragraphs. (Talk about Tatsuya, Lu, and the others was often mingled in the same post.)

steps on soapbox labeled Moderator
Please remember to keep on topic when you're talking in a thread. When you jump around from topic to topic within a single thread, you make it extremely difficult for readers to come in and follow the conversation line. A wall of off-topic posts is a great way to keep people out of the thread. Here at AS, we want to encourage people to enter threads which is why off-topic walls posts are against the rules.
steps off soapbox

[guestuser]

i just want to ask if tatsuya was to become an other brother to any other character with similar age as him in this series will they turn out like miyuki with just a bit weaker brother complex