High School DxD Light Novel - Character power-ups, match-ups, and ratings

[aw454wtr]

In terms of the main plot sitri team will not be nothing more than jobbers, with enemies getting stronger. Vol 5 the author had to pull some serious BS just to make the RG with Gremory team last more than a few paragraphs

For all the tactics Sona can think of and however many powerups Sitri team gets I seriously doubt any of them can overcome power than Rias, Issei, Vali and Saiarog possess, while they may be competitive in RG,that will mostly be against background characters that are never shown in the novel that no reader will care about

While it started out as Sona supposing to be Rias rival (like how Vali is for Issei) I think Rias is too far above Sona to be considered her rival, if anything Saioarg is better suited to be Rias rival character

Sona rival should be Seekvaira as they should be more equal in overall power

[Hakai]

Originally Posted by aw454wtr

While it started out as Sona supposing to be Rias rival (like how Vali is for Issei) I think Rias is too far above Sona to be considered her rival, if anything Saioarg is better suited to be Rias rival character

Sona rival should be Seekvaira as they should be more equal in overall power

It's not all about power you know. Rias is stronger but Sona is smarter.
Overall I'd say they are both equally capable/talented.

Sona's tactics can be serious asset in group battles as we saw in V14.

Why do you think Ravel is treated as a key member in Ise's current team, it's because of her excellence in strategies. She's far from being the strongest in the team.

[Lucidrago]

What enemies? The enemies they have been facing in Qlippoth? Because they have been fighting and defeating them. There are few god-class beings to begin with. Name some of these stronger enemies for me. Because throughout the series, the Sitri team has been doing well against these stronger enemies. Again you're basing it on sheer power when you say Sona isn't suited to be Rias' rival. Rias has the more OP team with decent tactics. Sona has the more well-balanced team with excellent tactics and various uses. You don't have to be equal to someone in power to be someone's rival. I never said that Sona would win against those guys. You guys are talking like Bedeze Abbadon where he basically just insulted Saji and Sairaorg and said that tactics are good, but you need to be a monster to be in the Top 10. Again do I need to tell you guys about Rudiger Rosenkreutz who has specifically been stated to have beaten stronger teams and got into the Top 10. And has beaten Tannin more times than Tannin has beaten him. Do I need to say that thousands of times?

And yes maybe the Sona team can't defeat some of the OP opponents the Gremory group has defeated. Doesn't mean you should be so quick to write them off and deem them useless. That's just an insult to them and an insult to Ishibumi. Sona's team is powerful, but their power is decent. Compared to the Gremory group whose power is super exceptional. Doesn't mean they aren't equal. The gap between them isn't as wide as you think. It's wide. But it's not like that gap is between Heaven and Earth. So now all teams that aren't exceptionally powerful as the Gremory group should just sit down and die? That's kind of unfair. I understand the need for power. And you can have the best tactics in the world but they can be rendered useless. Same with power. You've seen how Issei was pushed into a corner by Cao Cao.

And I don't see that Rating Game as BS. Read the volume. And listen to what Azazel says during the volume. In the end, that Rating Game was to basically help the Gremory group grow stronger. On the surface, the Gremory group are an exceptionally powerful team. But if you look beneath the surface there are a whole bunch of weaknesses just lying beneath. So yeah they intentionally held back the Gremory group. But if the Gremory group can't hold back their power then doesn't that just prove their incompetence? One rule was not to damage the Rating Game field. While the others might have been fine, that put Xenovia at a severe disadvantage. And so did it Issei. But Xenovia couldn't properly control Durandal and its immense power so it would be more of a drawback. And Issei had just achieved Balance Breaker and it wasn't really fully stable yet. So could Issei handle that immense power and not let it go wild? And then there was not allowing Gasper to use his Sacred Gear. He barely knew how to control it and could easily get out of control. It would be accurate to say that he was the weakest link of the Gremory group at that time. So did you want no restrictions and 3 members of the Gremory group having their power go wild that they couldn't properly control yet? And then Sona exposed Gasper's weakness and took him out and he was the first one to retire. That's something the Gremory group needs to work on. And then for example, Xenovia's power was used against her and Tsubaki used her Mirror Alice to take Xenovia out. Another flaw. And while Issei beat Saji, he had lines attached to him that was used to drain his blood and he retired due to blood loss. Just took out the strongest member of the Gremory group. Then Asia just broke formation and went to heal Issei. And Momo, Sona's bishop, got to her position and used Reverse as soon as Asia released an area healing effect turning her healing aura into a damaging one and Asia and Momo were both taken out. That was dangerous and reckless and showed another weakness of the Gremory group and how they need to keep their composure even when their comrade is on the ground about to retire. If that aura had encompassed the whole Gremory group or at least Rias was in the midst of that healing aura, it would have been game over. And then the queen lost her composure when she's supposed to be calm and composed during the Rating Games. So that Rating Game was useful in proving that the Gremory group had too many weaknesses that could be exposed and how inexperienced they were when it came to the Rating Games and how Sona basically just took out half of her team. She took out the strongest member of the Gremory group, a Longinus possessor with Balance Breaker. Even if he couldn't use his full power, that's a HUGE advantage. Again there's a reason why Sona got such high marks for that Rating Game.

Now yes I know that Sona and her team will never be as EXCEPTIONALLY powerful as Rias and her team. And most teams if any will ever be as powerful as the Gremory group. I doubt Diehauser's peerage could even take them on. Because I would say the peerages of the Rookies Four are on par with the peerages of the Top 10. So no Sona's peerage isn't lacking. And they are constantly getting stronger as well. I never said they'd be able to fight every enemy the Gremory group has been facing. But some of these stronger enemies, only Issei has been able to take on out of the Gremory group. And of course they won't overcome Issei, Vali, Sairaorg, and the other Longinus possessors. And the same about the Gremory group. You're trying to compare the Sitri team by power output. I'm comparing them overall to the Gremory group. Again don't just write someone off because you feel that tactics can't win against power. You don't need to match someone in power output to beat them. Cao Cao vs The Two Heavenly Dragons, Azazel, Le Fay, Kuroka, and the rest of the Gremory group in Volume 11? Rudiger Rosenkreutz? And plus the Sitri team has been fighting these stronger enemies. Not the top guys, but those guys are very few and last time I checked no one except the Longinus possessors have actually been able to fight against them. Most things have been team effort. Actually Saji who is part of the Sitri team has been shining more than most of those in the Gremory group. If it wasn't for him would they have defeated Loki? He actually managed to fight against Walburga, a Longinus possessor and a powerful magician and battled the flames of a Longinus. Although he was in his Balance Breaker and she wasn't. So what stronger enemies are you talking about? The top brass? Because those are very few. And most of the time Issei is the only one that can actually fight against them. Are you talking about the grunts. Because the Sitri team has been taking them down and gaining valuable combat experience. So don't be so quick to just writing someone off because they don't have immense power.

[DragonOsman]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

What enemies? The enemies they have been facing in Qlippoth? Because they have been fighting and defeating them. There are few god-class beings to begin with. Name some of these stronger enemies for me. Because throughout the series, the Sitri team has been doing well against these stronger enemies. Again you're basing it on sheer power when you say Sona isn't suited to be Rias' rival. Rias has the more OP team with decent tactics. Sona has the more well-balanced team with excellent tactics and various uses. You don't have to be equal to someone in power to be someone's rival. I never said that Sona would win against those guys. You guys are talking like Bedeze Abbadon where he basically just insulted Saji and Sairaorg and said that tactics are good, but you need to be a monster to be in the Top 10. Again do I need to tell you guys about Rudiger Rosenkreutz who has specifically been stated to have beaten stronger teams and got into the Top 10. And has beaten Tannin more times than Tannin has beaten him. Do I need to say that thousands of times?

And yes maybe the Sona team can't defeat some of the OP opponents the Gremory group has defeated. Doesn't mean you should be so quick to write them off and deem them useless. That's just an insult to them and an insult to Ishibumi. Sona's team is powerful, but their power is decent. Compared to the Gremory group whose power is super exceptional. Doesn't mean they aren't equal. The gap between them isn't as wide as you think. It's wide. But it's not like that gap is between Heaven and Earth. So now all teams that aren't exceptionally powerful as the Gremory group should just sit down and die? That's kind of unfair. I understand the need for power. And you can have the best tactics in the world but they can be rendered useless. Same with power. You've seen how Issei was pushed into a corner by Cao Cao.

And I don't see that Rating Game as BS. Read the volume. And listen to what Azazel says during the volume. In the end, that Rating Game was to basically help the Gremory group grow stronger. On the surface, the Gremory group are an exceptionally powerful team. But if you look beneath the surface there are a whole bunch of weaknesses just lying beneath. So yeah they intentionally held back the Gremory group. But if the Gremory group can't hold back their power then doesn't that just prove their incompetence? One rule was not to damage the Rating Game field. While the others might have been fine, that put Xenovia at a severe disadvantage. And so did it Issei. But Xenovia couldn't properly control Durandal and its immense power so it would be more of a drawback. And Issei had just achieved Balance Breaker and it wasn't really fully stable yet. So could Issei handle that immense power and not let it go wild? And then there was not allowing Gasper to use his Sacred Gear. He barely knew how to control it and could easily get out of control. It would be accurate to say that he was the weakest link of the Gremory group at that time. So did you want no restrictions and 3 members of the Gremory group having their power go wild that they couldn't properly control yet? And then Sona exposed Gasper's weakness and took him out and he was the first one to retire. That's something the Gremory group needs to work on. And then for example, Xenovia's power was used against her and Tsubaki used her Mirror Alice to take Xenovia out. Another flaw. And while Issei beat Saji, he had lines attached to him that was used to drain his blood and he retired due to blood loss. Just took out the strongest member of the Gremory group. Then Asia just broke formation and went to heal Issei. And Momo, Sona's bishop, got to her position and used Reverse as soon as Asia released an area healing effect turning her healing aura into a damaging one and Asia and Momo were both taken out. That was dangerous and reckless and showed another weakness of the Gremory group and how they need to keep their composure even when their comrade is on the ground about to retire. If that aura had encompassed the whole Gremory group or at least Rias was in the midst of that healing aura, it would have been game over. And then the queen lost her composure when she's supposed to be calm and composed during the Rating Games. So that Rating Game was useful in proving that the Gremory group had too many weaknesses that could be exposed and how inexperienced they were when it came to the Rating Games and how Sona basically just took out half of her team. She took out the strongest member of the Gremory group, a Longinus possessor with Balance Breaker. Even if he couldn't use his full power, that's a HUGE advantage. Again there's a reason why Sona got such high marks for that Rating Game.

Now yes I know that Sona and her team will never be as EXCEPTIONALLY powerful as Rias and her team. And most teams if any will ever be as powerful as the Gremory group. I doubt Diehauser's peerage could even take them on. Because I would say the peerages of the Rookies Four are on par with the peerages of the Top 10. So no Sona's peerage isn't lacking. And they are constantly getting stronger as well. I never said they'd be able to fight every enemy the Gremory group has been facing. But some of these stronger enemies, only Issei has been able to take on out of the Gremory group. And of course they won't overcome Issei, Vali, Sairaorg, and the other Longinus possessors. And the same about the Gremory group. You're trying to compare the Sitri team by power output. I'm comparing them overall to the Gremory group. Again don't just write someone off because you feel that tactics can't win against power. You don't need to match someone in power output to beat them. Cao Cao vs The Two Heavenly Dragons, Azazel, Le Fay, Kuroka, and the rest of the Gremory group in Volume 11? Rudiger Rosenkreutz? And plus the Sitri team has been fighting these stronger enemies. Not the top guys, but those guys are very few and last time I checked no one except the Longinus possessors have actually been able to fight against them. Most things have been team effort. Actually Saji who is part of the Sitri team has been shining more than most of those in the Gremory group. If it wasn't for him would they have defeated Loki? He actually managed to fight against Walburga, a Longinus possessor and a powerful magician and battled the flames of a Longinus. Although he was in his Balance Breaker and she wasn't. So what stronger enemies are you talking about? The top brass? Because those are very few. And most of the time Issei is the only one that can actually fight against them. Are you talking about the grunts. Because the Sitri team has been taking them down and gaining valuable combat experience. So don't be so quick to just writing someone off because they don't have immense power.

Agreed completely.

About Ophis, by the way. You think I contradicted myself? Think about what I said and why.

If you think about it, Ophis's only real "weakness", when she was infinite, was in the fact that she's a Dragon. A very powerful, OP Dragon, but a Dragon nonetheless. And what takes out a Dragon? A Dragon Slayer. But aside from that, Ophis actually was invincible when she was in her prime. I mean, just look at what Dragon Slayer had to be used on her. Do you really think any other Dragon Slayer would've worked? Also, in a way, even being able to bring out and use Samael was already a special case. It's normally placed under a whole bunch of seals in the deepest part of Cocytus. In Volume 11, Hades let Cao Cao take it out.

Also, Great Red was Ophis's equal when she was infinite. Not stronger than her.

As for God of the Bible. He wasn't really known for his power. He was known for his sealing ability, which was what put him in the Top 10 in the first place. In terms of raw power, Ddraig and Albion actually were stronger than him. You keep saying that he was weakened from sealing Trihexa when he and the rest of the Three Great Powers fought the Two Heavenly Dragons. But think about what happened for a minute.

Ddraig and Albion had also already been fighting for quite a while. They also weren't at full power. And the Three Great Powers were having their war at that time as well. Ddraig and Albion's rampage got in the way of the war. The Three Great Powers got enraged, and so did the two Dragons. The Three Great Powers were forced to put a stop to the war and form a temporary truce just to deal the rampage of two Dragons. That's the story we heard directly from Ddraig, if you recall. The Dragons were drowned in power, and then they died and got sealed into Sacred Gears by God.

But yes, it did require all three sides forming a truce to take them out and seal them. Not just because God was weakened. From Ddraig's own story, and also from what happened, it seems more like it's meant to be a testament to how powerful Ddraig and Albion were. They'd also been fighting each other prior to interrupting the war between the Three Great Powers, so they also weren't at full power.

The reason Ophis couldn't ignore God was probably because of his sealing skills as well. If he got a chance to use a strong enough sealing technique, he could probably have sealed even Ophis. Although it would probably have killed him since Ophis was the embodiment of infinity. Ddraig and Albion also had special skills, though. Penetrate, Reduce, Blazing Inferno of Scorching Flames, Reflect. Just Penetrate alone allows Ddraig to render any kind of defensive ability useless. Reduce works on any organic being aside from Ddraig, (the infinite) Ophis and Great Red, just like how Ddraig's flames also work on anyone aside from Albion, (the infinite) Ophis and Great Red. Though Trihexa also seems to be too powerful for Ddraig and Albion's ultimate moves. But that's about it.

@aw454wtr: Why do you keep underestimating tactics? You do realize that the Rating Game match in Volume 5 was meant to address the Gremory group's weaknesses so that they'd know what to work on, right? And the main point in Rating Games is the ratings and reviews. Even though Sona lost that match in Volume 5, because of her amazing tactics and accomplishments during that match, she got really high marks. And again, like Lucidrago said: look at how Cao Cao always drove Ise into a corner. Ise is much stronger than Cao Cao if you look at in terms of raw power. But Cao Cao is able to analyze all of the Ise's attacks and moves, figure out his weaknesses, and beat him. In Volume 12 as well, in their last fight, Ise ended up having to use his brain to beat him. Don't underestimate tactics.

[Tbolt]

[Lucidrago]

Well someone isn't invincible if they have a weakness. If Ophis can be affected by the Ultimate Dragon-slayer, she's not invincible. Even if she was infinite. It doesn't matter how powerful the Ultimate Dragon Slayer is, if it affected Ophis she's not invincible.

And the God thing is just speculation. No one knows his true power level and he's dead now. You'd think that Ishibumi would mention him in one of the afterwords talking about how strong he was. Maybe he will in the future. He did tell us who were in the Top 10 and the legendary beings the Satans had in their peerages. So maybe he'll tell us how strong God was. Because God does have a deep influence in this series due to creating the Sacred Gears and being the center of Christianity when he was alive. So let's wait and see if Ishibumi says anything.

Oh yeah. New power level list. I'm basing their strength on how many pawns they would be worth in the Azazel Cup.

1 pawn: Coriana Andrealphus(Sairaorg's bishop), Tomoe Meguri, Tsubasa Yura, Momo Hanakai, Reya Kusaka, Ruruko Nimura

2 pawns: Gandoma Balam(Sairaorg's rook), Elmenhilde Karnstein, Liban Crocell(Sairaorg's knight), Misteeta Sabnock(Sairaorg's bishop)

3 pawns: Bova Tannin, Ladora Bune(Sairaorg's rook), Beruka Furcas(Sairaorg's knight), Asia Argento, Ravel Phenex

4 pawns: Rossweisse, Xenovia Quarta, Irina Shidou, Gasper Vladi, Koneko Toujou, Valerie Tepes, Lint Selzan, Sona Sitri, Tsubaki Shinra, Bennia, Loup Garou, Jeanne, Heracles, Griselda Quarta?

5 pawns: Bikou, Regulus, Genshirou Saji, Ouryuu Nakiri, Rias Gremory, Akeno Himejima, Kuisha Abbadon, Kiba Yuuto, Kuroka, Arthur Pendragon, Le Fay Pendragon, Vasco Strada, Suzaku Himejima?, Yasaka?, Fafnir?, Tannin?

6 pawns: Baraqiel, Georg, Fenrir

7 pawns: Issei, Vali, Sairaorg, Cao Cao, Dulio, Tobio, Lavinia Reni?, Tiamat?, Grayfia Lucifuge?

8 pawns: Gods and god-class beings

*Based on whether they achieved Balance Breaker or not, the girls of the Sitri group who have Artificial Sacred Gears and Sairaorg's two servants that have Sacred Gears might be worth 2 or 3 pawn pieces in this tournament.

*And I know Asia has no combat ability but due to the effectiveness of her Sacred Gear and her achieving Balance Breaker with it, I put her at 3 pawn pieces.

That's just an estimate of where I believe everyone lies when it comes to power. Ask any questions about it if you need to.

[Gaizafaiz]

Did Ishibumi said anything about the god being confirmed dead in the afterword? I can't remember. If yes, sorry. If he didn't, what are the chances of the god still being alive(faking death if you want to put it in a way) but he's just hiding somewhere where even the heaven itself can't detect him. Like literally no one knew about him. He's just watching everything silently in the darkness.

[Bennia Lover]

I'm telling ya, Mil-tan is God in disguise

[B214]

Originally Posted by Gaizafaiz

Did Ishibumi said anything about the god being confirmed dead in the afterword? I can't remember. If yes, sorry. If he didn't, what are the chances of the god still being alive(faking death if you want to put it in a way) but he's just hiding somewhere where even the heaven itself can't detect him. Like literally no one knew about him. He's just watching everything silently in the darkness.

There's no need for him to confirm in the afterword, he already mentioned it in the story. He usually uses Afterword to explain stuff he didn't touch on in the story.

[DragonOsman]

[I'm sorry. Long post incoming.]

Yeah. And the fact that things that were normally impossible while he was alive, like Holy and Demonic combining or so many Balance Breakers coming up, happened should be proof enough. The System of Heaven that manages miracle and everything is also much harder to control because he's no longer alive (although that could still happen even if he's not there to manage it while still being alive - but I doubt that this is what happened). I don't think Balance Breakers came up after God's death since, from what I've read and understood, Balance Breaker is a bug in the Sacred Gear System from when God was still alive. He probably had a reason to keep the bug there even though he knew about it.

And Lucidrago, I'm sure God, in terms of pure power, was weaker than Ddriag and Albion and that his main forte was in sealing because of all of the things that have been stated about him and his feats. Sealing the Two Heavenly Dragons, sealing Trihexa, being someone even Ophis couldn't ignore (possibly because he could've sealed her if she let her guard down). I know he was also weakened when he and the rest of the forces of the Three Great Powers fought Ddraig and Albion, but Ddraig and Albion were also weakened. Neither of them were at full power. But even then, the fact that it took the combined forces of the Three Great Powers to take them down and seal them into Sacred Gears should already tell you how powerful they were. The Three Great Powers had to put a hold on their war and form a temporary truce just to deal with them. Most of the world's scenery had been changed and leveled just because of the fight between the Two Heavenly Dragons back then, too.

There are times when simply being able to kill someone doesn't make you stronger than them, like when the other person was caught off guard for example. But there are times when it does count. That's why I say that we can take the fact that Ddraig and Albion were said to have the power to dominate God of the Bible to mean that they could defeat and kill him. That's what the term "dominate" means, too, after all.

Anyway, now I have to say some things about Dragon Deification, Juggernaut Drive, and the Triaina and True Queen and Vali's Empireo Juggernaut Overdrive. Bear with me, please (and this is going to get long, so let me apologize for that in advance, as well).

First, Dragon Deification and its drawbacks. We know that the main price for the version of Dragon Deification revealed in Volumes 20 and 21, which we know now was bottlenecked as a result of Ophis having been split in two, was something Ishibumi referred to as "pain worse than death" in the Volume 20 Afterword. From Volume 21, it's known that that was him being unable to see the breasts of the girls, with the exception of Koneko and his own mother. He couldn't speak about breasts, and even hugging or kissing a girl with big breasts that he liked gave him a splitting headache. He couldn't even kiss Rias without getting a severe headache. And before he woke up from being soaked in a solution made from breast milk () and Phoenix Tears, it was even said that aside from his heart, most of his organs had stopped functioning. Azazel also said this:

“I’m also not sure about that. It could continue on like that forever, or perhaps it’ll be better tomorrow. However, one thing is clear…its best if you don’t continue to use the power of Dragon Deification. You could say that you’ve been able to survive this time, but I don’t know about next time. If you naively think that you can simply use breast milk to help you recover from using Dragon Deification again, you may not just be unable to see breasts next time, even butts, and in the worst case, you may just die after seeing a woman’s outline.”

and also this:

“Ise can’t see women’s breasts, right? He can’t even speak about them. Every time Ise causes a miracle, it’s by borrowing the power of breasts. As a result, Ise himself has become an embodiment of breasts. Dragon Deification can be said to have been a power-up. Although it was only temporary, his body did indeed handle the power of infinity. If it was an ordinary Devil or Dragon, their body wouldn’t be able to withstand it and they’d die within a few seconds. Ise was only able to defeat Rizevim because he had obtained Great Red’s flesh. However, that is the limit. After having obtained the power of infinity, it would be most unusual if there weren’t any repercussions. I think it’s roughly because you perceive women’s breasts as your own spiritual food, thus therefore, this has resulted in a reverse impact, and it is now your poison. Well, since erotic magazines are so painful for you to look at, my guess doesn’t seem too far off.”

But let me ask you guys: even prior to what Ajuka said in Volume 23 about Dragon Deification according to spoilers, and the way to complete it, had there ever been anything that was said that could even imply that the problem with Dragon Deification was Ise's stamina? Because the answer, as far as I can see at least, is a big fat "NO". Which is why I don't think that what Ajuka said in Volume 23 was BS. There might be people who disagree, but this is still what I think.

This is what Ajuka said:

Ajuka is checking Ise's Evil Piece. He says that it all turned into mutation piece most likely due to Dragon-Godification. Ajuka says its terrifying that even the 8 mutation piece can't completely handle it yet. He says that form has the power which can seriously change the world.
Ise says he can't master it yet. But Ajuka replies that he thinks Ise is in a stage where he can. Ajuka says that it will take year to perfectly master it. He says Ise has all the requirement already. One of it is Ophis's stolen power---Lilith. Ajuka says that the reason why Ise can't use the actual DxD isnt because he lacks stamina. But more of Ophis's problem since her body split into two. So be resonating Ophis and Lilith, Ise should be able to use it. Ajuka says Ise should just leave that to Ophis and Lilith.

It's also possible that DxD G couldn't be as powerful as it should be, since Ophis has been split in two. I think it can become more powerful than it was in Volumes 20 and 21 once it's truly completed as a result of Ophis and Lilith resonating, though at this point this is only a theory of mine since Ajuka doesn't seem to have said anything like that according to that spoiler.

Anyways, next is Juggernaut Drive and its alternatives that Ise and Vali found.

First of all, what do you guys think Gleipnir did to Fenrir when it was put on him? This is what was said about it in Volume 7:

[Wanwan is more troublesome than Daddy. You would die most of the times if you were bitten by his fangs. But he has a weakness. The magic-chain Gleipnir created by the Dwarves can capture him. You can seal his movement with that.]
Wanwan, huh. Well, from the point of view from this dragon it would be a little doggy indeed.
“We have already checked that. But from the reports from the North, the Gleipnir didn’t work. That’s why I thought about getting another method from you.”
Hmm. I can’t keep up with their conversation. Well, it would be okay if other guys smarter than me can understand it.
[…..Hmm, maybe Daddy enhanced Wanwan. If that’s the case then ask the Dark-Elves living in the certain land of the Norse World. If I remember, their elder knows a technique to power-up the magic residing within the Dwarves' items. I will transmit the location of the place where the elder is living to the Sacred Gears of Ddraig and Albion.]

So yeah, it's not meant to do anything more than just stop Fenrir's movements. It didn't weaken it at all. Gleipnir was probably also a way to get around its fangs that are said to have the power to kill Gods. So Vali in Juggernaut Drive could still be said to be Heavenly Dragon-level because he managed to defeat it.

Look at this quote as well:

Our opponent is a God. But the biggest problem is the wolf he is carrying with him. Fenrir.

A real monster which has power surpassing that of its father. What I heard was that it has a power on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons before they were sealed, and even Sensei and oldman Tannin can’t beat it one on one.

Of course me and Vali who can’t pull out the full power of the Two Heavenly Dragons are no match for him.

Apparently by using Juggernaut-Drive we will have a chance to defeat it, but I will die if I use it, and Vali will end up using his demonic-powers and won’t last long enough to fight Loki. If it goes wrong Vali will also use his lifespan and die.

It's said that Juggernaut Drive temporarily and forcibly removes the seal on the Two Heavenly Dragons' power in exchange for having the wielder go berserk and then die after using up their life force. "Power" here refers to their actual, pure power, not including the abilities.

According to Shalba, Ophis's snakes should've made him as strong as the original Maou. And yet Ise in his incomplete Juggernaut Drive easily defeated him. This is what Shalba said after both of his arms had been ripped off:

“Y-You Monster! A-Are you telling me this is the ‘Juggernaut-Drive'!? This is no joke! M-My power should have been raised to that of the former-Maou due to Ophis' power! He has surpassed the Boosted Gear's specs recorded in the data!”

I'm not sure if it can be said to be Heavenly Dragon-level like Vali's, but it still defeated someone on the level of a Maou. Although perhaps, aside from incomplete due to the fact that it was possible to turn back from it even though the completed Juggernaut Drive is permanent (normally, that is; Vali could still turn back probably because he can slightly mitigate the drawbacks with his Demonic Power for a few minutes), its overall power output might still be on par with Vali's one. Though I still think it's likelier that it being incomplete also made it weaker than Vali's one in terms of power output.

Sirzechs said this in Volume 6 "New Life" about Juggernaut Drive:

While you were sleeping, Azazel talked about a couple of things with Ddraig. When you thought that you lost Asia Argento-san, your rage increased to the utmost level, which released the sealed power.]
I see. So I turned into that outrageous form due to my anger. But that Ddraig appeared while I was unconscious, huh.
[That form allows you to attain the power which surpasses God and Maou temporally. –But it reduces the life of the possessor considerably. It’s better you don’t turn into that form anymore. If you die, lots of people will be sad. Even my sister….]

And Ise himself said this in Volume 7 Life.1:

Using the power of the Sekiryuutei won’t be a problem, but by using the power which surpasses the limit will also start to shorten my life span.

It seems like Vali uses the enormous demonic-powers within him in place of his life and somehow manages that, but for someone like me who has barely any demonic-power would be………. Since I don’t have anything to use besides my life, I will get closer to my death when I use the power which surpasses the limit of a Heavenly Dragon. Now, using the power which surpasses the limit due to rage would mean death for me……

And Ise said this in Volume 7 Life.4:

I was told from Sensei that Vali is able to use his demonic-power in replacement for his lifespan to use Juggernaut Drive for a short time…… But I was also told that he can’t use it perfectly. Most likely there is a thin line between being berserk, and there might be a danger that it would reduce his lifespan.

So yeah, even Vali can't use it perfectly. It's at Heavenly Dragon-level, but Vali hasn't mastered it. It's impossible to master it.

And Azazel also said that Ise can achieve a power that rivals (I assume, the completed version of) Juggernaut Drive by removing the curse of the past possessors and seeking a power different from Juggernaut Drive. That's the Triaina and True Queen. Here's the quote where Azazel said it, in Volume 7 Life.2:

“They say that the families and people close to the past possessors have become unfortunate due to the curse. That’s why if you eliminate the curse……the negative feelings, then instead of the [Juggernaut-Drive], I made the logic that you might be able to attain a power that rivals [Juggernaut-Drive] without trimming your life. For that, you have to go deep into the consciousness of the Sacred Gear and release the thoughts of past Sekiryuutei’s from their negative feelings.”

“S-So I have to put to rest the fragments of the past possessors thoughts who are residing within the Sacred Gear, and then create a new powerful and safe power which isn’t a ‘Juggernaut-Drive’…..?”

“Well, that’s basically it. Putting to rest the thoughts of the past Sekiryuutei, try to do that. Ddraig, help him out with it.”

Then, Volume 9 Life.4, end of Part 3:

Again in a loud voice, it was--

[ It's coming, go forth! ]

As Elsha-san raised her voice, red light overflowed from the jewels all over the armour... Warmth could be felt coming from within my body... like some kind of overflowing power... spurting out...!

Cannot be suppressed! Is this the power sleeping within the Sacred Gear? Is this Juggernaut?

No, no, there's no feeling of terror. Rather, it was some kind of energy pulse never felt before. But it has a certain feeling of nostalgia. Ddraig, this is--

[ I feel it too, partner... How nostalgic. This is -- my original aura. Unlike the power from Juggernaut, driven by extreme emotion, there is no curse or negative emotion. This feels like the time when I still had my material body, when all I cared was to simply fight the White One to determine the victor! ]

Ddraig's voice was full of happiness and joy.

Though I didn't know what had happened to Ddraig, but the red aura was now bursting forth from my entire body, covering me and the entire surroundings--

Ddraig's original aura. The level of the power output may not be the same level as Ddraig in his prime yet, but it'll get there eventually. The point is that Ddraig's original aura was liberated, without the curse tainting it like in Juggernaut Drive:

"Let's go! Boosted Gear!"

In tandem with my yelling, the red flashing light surrounding my body began to give off a massive aura!

--Power gushed out without end!

From the depths of my heart, from within my body, it flowed from the Sacred Gear. So this was Ddraig's original power. Combined with the negative emotions of that berserk state known as Juggernaut, it became that dangerous power.

But now was different. Those negative emotions could not be felt right now, and my consciousness was intact!

[ Ah yes. I finally remember. Why did I forget...? Yes, it was God. The original power of Albion and mine that God sealed -- ]

Ddraig spoke, sounding like he noticed something... Anyway, let's talk later.

First, let's beat these guys right here!

So yeah, it's Ddraig's original power without the curse of the past possessors, though the output still has to be raised up to where Ddraig's was in his prime. But its just the power without all of the abilities; just the pure power of the Sekiryuutei Ddraig, itself. But it was after this, in Volumes 18 and 21 respectively, that Penetrate and Blazing Inferno Scorching Flames were unlocked. The second Dragon Deification and the change in Albion's determination which Ddraig noticed were required for the latter, but it can also be said that it was mainly because of the liberation of the power for Triaina and True Queen. And also as a result of that liberation of power, the Boosted Gear got other benefits like letting Balance Breaker last longer and reducing the time needed to get into Balance Breaker.

Vali's Emperio Juggernaut Overdrive surpasses Juggernaut Drive and Vali said that its power can be raised even further.

Here's a quote about it being possible to raise the power even further:

“[Juggernaut-Drive] excels in terms of destruction, but it comes with danger to your life and the risk of going out of control. The form I just showed you minimised that as much as possible. But what’s different from [Juggernaut Drive] is that it can be strengthened even more. Cao Cao. Your greatest failure is that you didn’t kill me when you had a chance.”

Azazel said this in Volume 9, "New Life", about it (including something about Ise's version):

Azazel also said to me:

"Ise, I think your choice of power is great. Your rival -- Vali is trying to take Juggernaut's power to the limits, to become a true tyrant, the Heavenly Dragon. Even if you make the same choice as him, it will only proceed like the last time when the Old Maou faction attacked, and be devoured by it. Ise, do not take the path of tyranny but choose the road to royalty. Wishing to become King is the right idea."

And here's the explanation why the stamina consumption for the Triaina and True Queen was initially insane (though Ddraig did say that it'll get better as Ise gets used to it):

“Even if you were able to stabilise the power, it might not solve the high consumption. It’s a new power that doesn’t hurt either the body or soul, but either way the consumption is intense. It must consume more stamina and aura because it doesn’t eat away at your life span or put your body in any danger.”

So it has a high consumption because it doesn’t have the price that would cut down my lifespan. This is the answer I found by choosing a power other than Juggernaut-Drive……

And here, Ise asks him (in Volume 11, Life.3) if he already obtained a power that surpasses Juggernaut Drive. Look at his answer (it's evasive, but it's still something at least):

“…….I’m really looking forward to it. Catch up to me quickly.”

“You sure are full of yourself, which makes me feel sick of it. So did you obtain the power that surpasses Juggernaut-Drive?”

“So what if I did?”

And Sirzecks also said that Vali obtained a power which surpasses Juggernaut Drive. In Volume 12, Life "Azazel":

“Yes. I can say the same to Vali who has surpassed [Juggernaut Drive]. –The “Infinite Dragon God” and the “Two-Heavenly Dragon”, and the “Dragon-Kings” which gather around them. –Like I thought, the ones who will be controlling the flow of the World and powers are Dragons.”

Yes. Dragons are the embodiment of power. And even humans have symbolised the power of Dragons since ancient times. No matter what they do, a strong Dragon attracts strong ones. Where will Ise and Vali go. I still haven’t witnessed it……..

He also said something interesting about Dragons in general: "Like I thought, the ones who will be controlling the flow of the World and powers are Dragons". Yep. Dragons are great.

[syzorst]

I find it a bit disappointing that Rias herself doesn't get much time to shine on her own with her own power. Most of her servants surpassed her.

[DragonOsman]

Actually, the only servants stronger than her currently are Kiba and Ise. Gasper will be stronger in the future, but right now he's still growing into his power. Akeno should be about as strong as her, and the rest are weaker.

[Lucidrago]

Well that's because she's the king and has to command her servants and show them off.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, that's true, but that's the reason why the King is (typically) the strongest. Rias is third strongest, though.

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Actually, the only servants stronger than her currently are Kiba and Ise. Gasper will be stronger in the future, but right now he's still growing into his power. Akeno should be about as strong as her, and the rest are weaker.

Well let's look at her servants before Issei went independent. You say Rias is the 3rd strongest but I don't see it. As you said Akeno is roughly her equal but what about Xenovia? Her Durandal makes her stronger than Rias and she beat Vasco who Issei had a hard time with even in his Cardinal Crimson form. Roseweiss could be slightly stronger given her talent and skill in magic dwarfs anyone in the Gremory group. I see Rias as the 5th strongest.

Rias started out as the strongest member but got eclipsed by so many of her servants. She rarely gets time to shine on her own which I find disappointing because she's suppose to be the main herione. I get that she's smart but Sona outshines her on tactics and what's worse is that even Ravel was able to beat Sona in tactics which is something Rias couldn't do. It's sad that the main Heroine is getting surpassed by everyone.

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Well that's because she's the king and has to command her servants and show them off.

The issue is her servants are such a power house that she rarely commands them. Sona was able to make better use of Rias servants given that she better than Rias in tactics. Again, another reason why it's disappointing that the main Heroine is rarely shines herself.

[Lucidrago]

Just because Xenovia has Durandal doesn't make her stronger than Rias. If Issei had went full power on Vasco Strada, I'm pretty sure that Issei could beat him. But they weren't trying to kill Strada or the exorcists. And they weren't fighting seriously like they would with a normal opponent.

Rias still trains and constantly improves along with everyone else in the Gremory group. Just because she has had less moments to shine than the others doesn't mean that she isn't still one of the strongest. She's the king and has to show off her servants. And plus remember what Azazel said in Volume 5 about how Rias could become a top-class devil even if she didn't train?

And Rossweisse uses Norse magic. Rias uses demonic powers. Big difference. Rias has Power of Destruction though. Rias has incredible talent when it comes to using her demonic powers.

Rias is decent at tactics and strategy-making. Sona is a master. So it's no surprise that Sona would outshine her in that regard.

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Just because Xenovia has Durandal doesn't make her stronger than Rias. If Issei had went full power on Vasco Strada, I'm pretty sure that Issei could beat him. But they weren't trying to kill Strada or the exorcists. And they weren't fighting seriously like they would with a normal opponent.

Rias still trains and constantly improves along with everyone else in the Gremory group. Just because she has had less moments to shine than the others doesn't mean that she isn't still one of the strongest. She's the king and has to show off her servants. And plus remember what Azazel said in Volume 5 about how Rias could become a top-class devil even if she didn't train?

And Rossweisse uses Norse magic. Rias uses demonic powers. Big difference. Rias has Power of Destruction though. Rias has incredible talent when it comes to using her demonic powers.

Rias is decent at tactics and strategy-making. Sona is a master. So it's no surprise that Sona would outshine her in that regard.

Xenovia having Durandal does make her stronger than Rias given she's a natural born holy sword wider. Also the fact she beat Vasco is proof she's stronger than Rias. Yes their goal wasn't to kill him but that didn't mean the battle was easy. And perhaps Issei could've won but the fact that he was struggling in his Cardinal Crimson form just proves my point. Issei wouldn't stand a chance against Vasco with just Scale Mail and that form is already stronger than Rias.

Yes I know Rias trains but it doesn't change the fact that many of her servants are stronger than her. As the main Heroine she doesn't shine as much as she needs to. She couldn't do anything against Riser and during her battle against Sona's peerage in Volume 5 the ones who shined most was Saji for beating Issei and Sona's tactics were proven superior. And it's not just tactics that Sona has over Rias. During their fight it was shown that Sona also has better magical skill than Rias.

Here's the thing. Rias is regarded as a top class devil who's also a genius who talent in demonic power but the issue is she hasn't shown much for all her hype. If she was a side character then I could understand but the problem is she's not just a heroine. She's the main herione. She's suppose to shine just as much as Issei if not slightly less. The problem is you have side characters outshinning more than the main Heroine. Sona who is Rias rival and a side character shines more than Rias does.

[syzorst]

And Lastly as I mentioned earlier that Ravel beats Sona in tactics. Rias's rival gets beat by Ravel at her best strong suit. Which is something Rias couldn't do.

[Brawlre]

Are you implying that. Base scailmale is ultimate class devil? Cause rias is at least ultimate class devil which was shown in the last volume

Also deleting that last comment and edit it into the one above no double posts