High School DxD Light Novel - Character power-ups, match-ups, and ratings

[Tbolt]

Well in boxing matches I was in when I was young all I had to do against a Technical type boxer was defend against his style, let him get frustrated and it was all over.

[B214]

DxD isn't boxing.

[Tbolt]

True but there are a lot of similarities between boxing and the rating games.

[B214]

No, you can't use weapons in boxing and you don't shoot laser from cannons.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, it's a poor comparison. Even barring the fact that there are no special powers like that in real life, in boxing, you only have to think of plans for yourself so you can win. But even then, it's just punching your opponent hard enough that they go down. It's not chess. Rating Games are chess, or at least close to chess.

We've seen how it is when a Power-type fights a Technique-type in some of Ise's fights. Ise vs. Apophis, Ise vs. Cao Cao, Ise vs. Kiba (during training - though they mostly tie), Ise vs. Saji. Ise has bad compatibility against Technique-types. He even said as much when he fought Apophis, even though he did win in the end.

But yes, Ise can still beat Technique-types. He needs to use either some technique of his own or just overwhelming power, or both, but he can beat them. I actually agree that overwhelming power can beat technique. Ise can probably do it, and Strada has also shown it. It just depends on who the Power-type fighter is and how strong they are.

[Tbolt]

No, you can't use weapons in boxing and you don't shoot laser from cannons.

If Fists aren't weapons what do you use when boxing? And in real life they have developed a true laser cannon.

[DragonOsman]

The point is that you can't use anything other than your fists in boxing. And my point about the difference between boxing and chess still stands.

[Tbolt]

Suit yourself since you know nothing about boxing.

[B214]

Originally Posted by Tbolt

Suit yourself since you know nothing about boxing.

So you're allowed to use swords and spears or even use kicking in boxing now.... Okay like you said suit yourself.

[Lucidrago]

@Tbolt Don't forget you're able to use giant magic blasts, barrriers, and everything else that's supernatural in boxing. Well I'm not an expert when it comes to boxing so I guess you know best. I thought there wasn't any of that stuff when it came to boxing. Didn't think I was wrong. So what other facts about boxing will you grace us with, kind sir?

[Krudelu]

Originally Posted by Tbolt

True but there are a lot of similarities between boxing and the rating games.

I think I know where you may be coming from but what are those similarities you may be thinking of? I may have a different thought about this instead. Your point will stand out more if you can at least explain it properly.

Anyway, one of the similarities I can think of between boxing and chess is that both make use mind games (I'm referring to plans and reads just to name a few). But this also applies in a lot of (if not any) battles in general.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, it's a poor comparison. Even barring the fact that there are no special powers like that in real life, in boxing, you only have to think of plans for yourself so you can win. But even then, it's just punching your opponent hard enough that they go down. It's not chess. Rating Games are chess, or at least close to chess.

If you meant rating games being close to chess in terms of emphasizing on making use of your units (for instance, the peerage) properly, I can see that. But when it goes down to 1v1 scenario, it becomes the "you only have to think of plans for yourself so you can win" type of deal (Ise vs Sairaorg and Ise vs Barakiel are some of the examples).

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, in 1v1 in Rating Games, it's a closer to boxing, but we still have all these special powers and are even allowed to use things other than our fists. That's already not in the realm of boxing anymore, since the rules in boxing only allow you to use your fists and nothing more. The one where both punches and kicks are allowed is not boxing, it's kick-boxing. There's a difference. And even in those Rating Games with 1v1 matches involved, like the Gremory vs. Bael youth match, the teams involved still have to think of strategies for their respective teams as a whole. Like, who to send and when, and how many people to send with that person, with the number rolled on the dice. And Rating Games are based on chess, so even though it's not easily apparent in every single variant or type of Rating Game, the similarities between it and chess are still there.

Edit: But before I forget, there's another I need to add.

In Rating Games, and also in battles in general, power isn't always everything. Barakiel also warned Ise about that. A Power-type using some Technique will have an easier than a Power-type using nothing but power. But we also have fights where a Power-type can beat a Technique-type most times out of ten. Whenever Ise and Kiba spar during training, they always tie. But when Ise and Saji fight, no matter what, Ise always wins (albeit with some difficulty because of Saji's versatility and Technique). And that's the same as with Ddraig vs. Vritra in the past. Ddraig found Vritra to be a troublesome opponent because of his versatility, but he'd always win in the end. And Ddraig's situation is very similar to Ise's. They're both Power-types. And Vritra and Saji are both Technique-types.

[Lucidrago]

And comparing a Rating Game to chess is a poor comparison. People aren't chess pieces(unless you're Lelouch they are). A Rating Game is a battlefield. Where there are many factors that can be used to achieve victory instead of having the stronger force. And intensive research of your opponent and looking for their weaknesses can help you but you won't know what's going to happen until the day of the Game. And during the Game you'll have to adapt to sudden changes. Something the enemy did you couldn't foresee or a brilliant plan the opponent used to put you in a corner. There have been armies with far lesser numbers and inferior troops that have beaten their opponent overwhelmingly.

[DragonOsman]

I know all that. But Rating Games are still based on chess. Also, it's been mentioned in the LNs that Rating Games are different from real battles. People who are used to real battles may not necessarily do well in Rating Games because there many factors and (sometimes special) rules involved in Rating Games compared to real battles. Also, in Rating Games there's a lesser chance that a player will die. Which is also different from real battles. In Rating Games, players will also sacrifice themselves on their own will so that their King can win. Kiba also told Ise that when he plays as a King, he'll have to be ready to throw away some of his teammates as sacrificial pieces so he can win, since it's different from a real battle. No one's saying he can do that in real battles, but it can still be done in Rating Games. Azazel also warned them about it and then asked Kiba who'd choose between Rias and Ise if they're both in danger. Kiba chose Rias without hesitation because she's the King. Ise also agreed in his mind and said he'd have hit him if he'd chosen him instead of Buchou.

[Krudelu]

@DragonOsman I was only referring to the "you only have to think of plans for yourself so you can win" part when I mentioned about only when it ends up coming down to 1v1 scenario in RG match, not boxing. After all, the quote can be applied to a lot of (if not any) 1v1 battles as well.

About the Ise Vs Saji fight, did you take DX4 into account on this one? So far, I'm not sure how did that one turned out

To be honest, personally, I just disregard the terms "power-type" and "technique-type" (IMO the series' worst terminologies) and always think that the more options the character can they open for themselves in most situations the better. i should had already mentioned about what other things Issei should work on, didn't I?

@Lucidrago You know that to achieve victory you have to make your team work out properly as well right (and the "team" in Lelouch's case are the "pieces")? And this is how you actually try to attain victory in chess as well though in RG's case, the King may tend to have as least sacrifice as possible. And adapting to sudden cahnges can apply to chess too you know.

key thing here is "making your team work out properly and adapting," hence this what makes RG somewhat comparable to chess.

The difference is that in RG there could be some varying handicaps between the two opposing sides due to the individuals themselves in the team can affect the quality of the team composition while in chess both sides have equal quality of units while the handicap in that game would be black side going second (after all it's a turn based game).

[DragonOsman]

We know from DX4 spoilers that Ise's team wins. And I'm sure Saji can't beat Ise no matter how troublesome a fight he manages to give him. Their rivalry is in parallel with Ddraig and Vritra. And like I said, even though Vritra was a troublesome opponent for him, Ddraig would still beat him.

I can agree with you on the rest.

[Lucidrago]

The evil pieces themselves are based on chess and some of the rules in Rating Games like Castling or 'defeat the king and you win' are based off of chess. But no matter how you paint it servants aren't chess pieces on a chessboard that have no will of their own. Their people with individual abilities and can fight on their own. Now yes the Rating Games are different from real battles but you can still apply experience in Rating Games to real battles. Say if you got two armies about to go up against each other. One of them has 2,000 troops which is mainly composed of farmers who just picked up swords to defend their land. While the other side is a trained, disciplined, and well-organized military that has 20,000 troops. In a head-on confrontation that are going to win against the opposing side every time. But they're in a foreign land and know nothing about the territory they're in or what dangers the land poses. So while there, they get swarmed by insects, attacked by wolves, etc. They fall prey to disease. Their opponent has set up traps in their land and they fall prey to that. And basically the opposing side uses guerilla tactics against them and whittle them down one by one. So they're thinking that we're the superior force and should win easily against some farmers with swords and spears. But yet they didn't take into account the factors of the land they'd be stepping in and how their opponents would use that to their advantage.

So yeah real battles are very different and don't have the numerous restrictions that Rating Games have. But Rating Games can very much help you in real combat situations. Look at Diehauser Belial. You need a good deal of intelligence to be able to adapt to the numerous forms of Rating Games there are. That's how Rudiger Rosenkreutz became #7 in the Rating Games.

[DragonOsman]

When I compare Rating Games to chess, I'm not saying that the King's "pieces" are really pieces on a chessboard with no will of their own that will get used by the King and thrown aside. I know they have wills of their own and serve their King of their own free will. But the rules of the Rating Games are still based loosely on chess. Each of the "pieces" aside from the King has the same value as that it does in chess, based on the Pawn Pieces, and to get a "checkmate" on the opposing King, you have to beat the opposing team's King. The term "checkmate" is taken from chess, and this rule of how to beat the opposing team's King is also the same. The Rating Games do have rules for when you can't take down the opposing team's King, though. I'm not sure if it's like that in chess as well. And in the game that Ise's team played against Barakiel's, the field was divided into the same number of squares as in chess and they treated it like a chessboard. You already mentioned the "Castling". The "Promotion" for the Pawn is also taken from chess. And the "Illegal Moves" are also there. Like how Ise's Triaina is "Illegal Move: Triaina" because it's something that's outside the rules in chess, and therefore illegal in a game of chess. A Pawn isn't supposed to be allowed to use Promotion without the King's permission. The Rating Games value entertainment more, though, so if the committee thinks that the fans will like it more if Triaina or any other Illegal Move is allowed, they'll allow it. And Ise's also allowed to use the Triaina and True Queen in the current tournament even though he isn't playing as a Pawn.

And yeah, you're right about how experience from Rating Games can be used in a real battle situation, but the fact also remains that the reverse isn't true. Ise has a lot of real battle experience, but because he can't translate that into Rating Games, it becomes part of the reason why he does kind of poorly in Rating Games as a King. I showed a quote before about how his reviews didn't really improve even after he defeated Barakiel. What the people had been saying about him being inexperienced and not having an understanding of the rules in Rating Games didn't change, but just the idea that he and his team are a simple and straightforward terror to the majority of teams was added on to all of that. So yeah, he still has poor reviews. I guess the thing that got added on was something good, so it can be seen as a good review, but one positive over a lot of negatives doesn't make the whole thing positive. The whole group (of reviews) as a whole is still a big negative.

After this game, the opinions of the critics changed. The voices pointing out that we were not familiar with strategy, and that our experience of the games was shallow did not change, but this was added on to the end of all that.
—To the majority of teams, they are a simple and straightforward terror.

End of the chapter that the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth Team vs. Lightning Team was in, Volume 22 Life 5.

By the way, speaking of the team names. Rias's nickname in the Underworld could also be used as her team's name, to get "Crimson Haired Ruin Princess Team". So why are they calling it something so underwhelming (if you compare it to the former) like "Rias Gremory Team"?

[Lucidrago]

Well Issei's team is mainly full of power idiots with a power idiot as king. No offense to them and all.

You're right about some of the rules being loosely based on chess and I never denied that. Just stated that if you want to compare Rating Games to something compare it to a battlefield.

[DragonOsman]

Ise's a Power Idiot, but he's much better than Xenovia at least. She acts like she has muscles for brains. Ise isn't like that.