2014-06-12, 23:57 | Link #2021 | ||
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Age: 35
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Essentially, whatever satisfaction Madoka felt in her role as Madokami (and I agree that there should be some), it simply cannot be any factor in her motivations. Madoka's motivations (for being a god) need to be selfless to stand on the same level with Homura's, otherwise all criticisms of Homura cannot even be fielded. Not to speak of Rebellion, if the weight of Madoka's sacrifice (separation from the human world, in particular her family) cannot be taken as significant and genuine then even the meaning of the original series falls apart and loses gravity. Last edited by Sol Falling; 2014-06-13 at 00:07. |
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2014-06-13, 01:03 | Link #2022 | ||||
Missionary of Madoka
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Age: 32
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She rewrote the laws of the entire universe for crying out loud. Quote:
The universe was made for her,therefore her magical potential should be enormous. Quote:
She was looking for a purpose in her life and she wanted to help other people. That's excatly what she got. Of course,it's possible that she is unhappy,but there is no evidence for that. |
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2014-06-13, 01:45 | Link #2023 | |
The Mage of Four Hearts
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But in the end, I think Homura did what she did simply because she wanted to be with Madoka. That was the main reason, and whatever Madoka said to her was just a justification on her part.
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2014-06-13, 01:58 | Link #2024 | |
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Homura just concluded that she needed to save Madoka from being a god. That's her motivation.
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2014-06-13, 04:19 | Link #2025 | |||
The True Culprit
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The movie is from Homura's point of view, to the point that she is dialetically creating the stage, casting the characters, and framing all the events in this movie. If there's a theme, it's because she's creating one in a very meta fashion. We're seeing the world through her lenses, tinted with her values system. There is a duality between duty and desire because she herself is separating them, and the movie concludes this by setting her up as a being to oppose. With violence, certainly not. Madoka is going to have to oppose her philosophically. That means rejecting the themes that compose Homura's worldview and motivations. Her way of thinking is not healthy and she needs to be disavowed of it. Quote:
That being said, my personal headcanon is that if Madoka ever finishes collecting all Magical Girls forever, she's gonna have a lot of free not-really-time-because-she's-outside-it, and might collect EVERYONE. Nothing says she can't. Quote:
Also Kyubey's last line in the movie is basically "Holy sh*t this magical girl thing was a bad idea abort abort give me a ticket to the Nope Train heading to F*ck Thatville."
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2014-06-13, 08:03 | Link #2026 |
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Join Date: Feb 2012
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I can sort of see that the incubators would be just aiming for average girls nowadays instead of hunting for ones with big potential... then again though, average girls are more likely to die in combat than the special ones so...
its also likely that they'll be looking for other means to harvest energy aside from humans, but for now they're going to be taking in those grief cubes from the wraiths due to homura's control.
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2014-06-13, 09:43 | Link #2027 | |||
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Rebellion could be viewed as a dark comedy of errors on the part of the primary players involved, with cautionary notes all around. Such a tale would also be consistent with Gen's darker-themed nature. "Don't mess around with people and things that you have a weak understanding of." (cautionary note based on what happened to Kyubey) "If you want something done right, do it yourself." (cautionary note based on what happened to Madoka) "Try to avoid assignments that could leave you conflicted, and don't talk in riddles to people that are a bit impulsive in being quick to act." (cautionary note based on what happened to Sayaka) And most importantly, given who's the main character of the movie... "Nobody can truly know another person 100%. So it's not your business to be making decisions for other people. You should respect other people enough to make their own decisions." (cautionary note for Homura) Personally, I think those make for some pretty good, practical themes. Quote:
Why would a person panic over being liberated from an unhappy state of being? It just doesn't make sense to me, especially in this case. Madokami once declared Homura to be her best friend, so she should think that whatever it is that Homura is doing is well-intentioned at least. This isn't exactly like getting mugged by a stranger in a dark alleyway. Look, if the movie didn't want my conclusions to be viable, then there's all sorts of things it could (and should) have done/executed differently. It didn't have to have Madokami panicking. It could have just had her looking perplexed and/or conflicted. The movie also didn't have to have Homura acting like some megalomaniacal villain straight out of a superhero comic. These visual depiction choices have consequences. It frames the actions in a specific light, which can support (or undermine) particular interpretations. Quote:
Spoiler for Madokami 1:
This person above is obviously the very picture of depression. Turning her back to human? No, we need to do that *and* get her to a mental health professional, right away! And her two friends aren't much better. Spoiler for Sleigh bells ringing, can you hear them?:
Wow, my heart goes out to these two. I mean, what with the Christmas-y magical sleigh ride feel of it and all. Their deep melancholy would make Haruhi Suzumiya blush. They're certainly in need of immediate help. On the flip-side... Spoiler for Happy days are here again!:
Madoka is overjoyed at getting this gift for her alone. Spoiler for Turn that frown upside down!:
Just feel the cheer in the air! Definitely a person experiencing great relief at having a burdensome weight lifted from off of her shoulders. In all seriousness, that is the perfect frown... It's almost comical. Spoiler for School spirit rises high!:
Even Love Live! and Disney can't compete with this level of pure bliss and euphoria. I'm here crying tears of joy at such a moving, heartwarming ending. Oh, and as for this joyous girl's childhood friend... Spoiler for She may have blue hair, but her mood certainly isn't blue! ^_^:
Massive improvement over before. When I think "bubbly contentment", this is the sort of face I imagine. So I guess you're right, Kazu-kun. We have no reason to doubt that Homura's conclusions about Madoka are correct. Really, we don't.
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2014-06-13, 10:40 | Link #2028 | ||
Missionary of Madoka
Join Date: Jun 2014
Age: 32
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After all,Madoka killed Mami to protect Homura and Homura is capable of hurting Madoka short-term for a long-term goal. Even then ,it would a dialogue heavy fight. Quote:
However,these bastards are smart,chances are they sercetly looking for a way to contact her regardless. Madoka is also their best chance, since her powers are on a par with Homura's and she is always willing to help. |
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2014-06-13, 11:19 | Link #2029 | |||
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1. An answer given by a person lacking key memories, and hence addressing a very general idea without knowledge of very specific circumstances that could quite conceivably change her answer. 2. A person with all of their memories restored, who looks completely happy. I think it makes much more sense to attach greater value to the latter of these two. I'll take clear visual evidence over an uninformed answer to a somewhat loaded question. There's a lot more issue with the alternate (uninformed answer to a loaded question) than with clear visual evidence, imo. Quote:
This is the key question - Is Madokami reasonably content and happy on the whole? I think the balance of evidence strongly favors "Yes, she is". Quote:
Nobody is 100% selfless. People are quite capable of having multiple motivations for one particular choice of action. Some of those motivations may be selfless and/or altruistic. Others may be selfish. That does not mean the motivations negate one another.
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2014-06-13, 11:30 | Link #2030 | |||
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2014-06-13, 14:25 | Link #2031 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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Or the conflict between what people really want and what they say they want. Quote:
Most importantly, there's doubt on her reasoning purely because it conflicts with the reasoning and philosophies of the most enlightened being and Big Good in the universe. Quote:
....Holy shit I hope it's a Shaping Duel, I'd crap my pants in glee. For those not in the know, in the Exalted tabletop RPG, fairies are basically monsters very similar to witches, and only understand concepts and stories. So when they fight, they attack each other's narratives, integrity, and sense of identity in duels involving highly symbolic, illusionary, reality-warping things. "I am an infinite ocean. Fire cannot exist ever again and never did exist because of me, snuffing the Prince of Flame before he could ever be." "I am not just the Prince of Flames, I am Hunger and Devouring. I simply swallow up all the water, down to the last infinite drop." Imagine Homura and Madoka constantly warping reality during their dialog, one second throwing galaxies at each other, the next moment they're calmly drinking tea, a television giving news about the world which keeps changing between mutually-exclusive 'good news' as they pro/con each other's intended worlds. Quote:
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Homura isn't doing this because she has a good reason to think Madoka is unhappy; she concludes Madoka is unhappy because it validates Homura's regression to her previous way of life. She's so broken that she can't live if it's not for the sake of imposing her guardianship onto Madoka; that's the whole point of the broken nutcracker symbolism. She's going to save Madoka whether she likes it or not. Whether she wants it or not. Whether she NEEDS it or not. She doesn't know what to do with herself otherwise, and she hates herself for failing her task the first time around. Quite literally, forcing Madoka into a safe, happy, normal life where Homura will protect her from everything that will change her is the only thing keeping Homura from blowing her own brains out. And that's sick, and it's unhealthy, and it's a sign that Homura's reasoning and point of view cannot be trusted. She's literally insane, and she's consumed by self-hatred, and it's so poisonous that it's destroying everything she valued in her life. She wants to save Madoka, but in so-doing she's fighting to suppress the beautiful, inspiring character traits that made her fall in love with her in the first place. She wants to save Madoka, even if it means destroying her friendship with her and making everyone hate her. She wants to save Madoka, even if she is infact responsible for Madoka's continued suffering as a result of it. She wants to save Madoka, even if it means dooming all other Magical Girls. She wants to save Madoka, even if it means nothing Madoka does will ever matter or be of any consequence, ever again. In trying to protect Madoka, she is trying to control her, and keep her from changing, growing into her own person, and leaving her mark on the world as is the right of all human beings. She might know this, and she might feel bad about it, but she's still doing it, so her remorse isn't very meaningful. And she does all of this because Homura hates herself, and if she can't do this, she is unworthy of living. And when she succeeds, she still won't be worthy of living. Homura is very likely to kill herself if it ever comes time that Madoka is no longer in need of her. If, hypothetically, Homura lives to see an old lady Madoka die after living a perfect life, she'll probably kneel infront of her gravestone and eat a pistol. This is horrible. This is insane. It's literally the worldview of an irrational person who's conclusions cannot and do not follow from the data she's been fed. She cannot be trusted to give us accurate themes of the series in her own words, because pretty much one of the themes is that she's WRONG. This was true in the TV series too ("Kindness leads to naivete", etc). Homura exists to tell the audience things that Madoka will prove false. Homura exists to perpetuate problems that Madoka will solve. Homura exists to need helping, because Madoka will help people. Because saving someone is to control them, and Madoka is better than that. Quote:
The Rebellion is against Homura Akemi.
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2014-06-13, 14:39 | Link #2032 | ||||||||
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So I have provided a sensible and viable interpretation of the Rebellion movie, its plot, and its themes. Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2014-06-13 at 14:57. |
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2014-06-14, 06:40 | Link #2033 | |||||
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Age: 35
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(Rather, my ultimate expectation for the resolution of Homura and Madoka's conflict has been from the start that they will both become happier. Although something of an implicit/meta reasoning, it has been enough basis from the start for me to have always seen Homura's actions as justified.) Quote:
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2014-06-14, 09:56 | Link #2034 | ||||||||
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However, it's also true that Madoka wanted to be useful to other people, and felt that she was lacking in that regard. I think that was at least as big a part of Madoka's characterization in the TV series as her attachment to her parents was. So becoming Madokami enables Madoka to achieve a big personal dream for herself (even if it is simply as a side-effect of a more central purely altruistic aim). It only makes sense to me that there would be considerable happiness in achieving that dream. I think that the happiness gained in achieving that dream would trump any sadness resulting from being separated from her parents given that Madokami likely knows that her parents and brother are living on happily even without her there. Quote:
But I think viewers are still free to conclude that, on the whole, Madoka would have been better off if allowed to remain as Madokami. That a fully aware Madoka would have preferred that, and not purely as a matter of duty. But also as a matter of personal ambition, and happiness at realizing that ambition through being Madokami. Well, there is a possible exception here. If Homura was to enact a means through which Madoka could achieve her dreams without becoming Madokami, then a good argument could probably be made that Homura's actions were beneficial to Madoka on the whole. But, alas, I'm fearful that what Kaisos Erranon wrote here could be mostly if not entirely accurate. What he wrote: The thing is that as long as Madoka has a purpose, as long as she feels that she's making a difference, she's happy. Homura -cannot- be happy unless Madoka is safe, normal, static and therefore purposeless. Their goals are inherently incompatible. If he's right, then Homura's actions ironically and tragically send Madoka down a path leading to dissatisfaction, low self-esteem, and ultimately unhappiness. This is not what Homura would want Madoka to feel, so I don't necessarily fault Homura's intentions here, but results do matter of course. Quote:
Madoka may have gained friends in America, which would be good, but her existing friendships with Hitomi and Sayaka now have a considerable 3-year gap to them, if not a complete negation (it depends on how long Hitomi and Sayaka were friends with Madoka). Quote:
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2014-06-14, 11:28 | Link #2035 |
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I have to admit, Madoka Magica has been a special series to me since it concluded with a perfect sense of closure. There is of course an entire universe to explore, but those seem to be the realm of supplementary material, and to find a way to continue this series? Certainly possible.
The most notable thing about the movie is that it looks really nice. The character designs are nice and shiny, it's actually animated, and the variety of colors was really well done with that relaxing music which is really the star of the series. This is of course intentional-- this place is supposed to be an idyllic paradise with a hint of irony, well except to one Good thing we didn't get real actors to play this, otherwise their necks would be broken! Unfortunately, the movie does seem to suffer from a sense of overindulgence. The first part of the movie can be dismissed as intentionally gratuitous. But some things are so drawn out to point of annoyance, and I'll make it pretty clear that while some of the directing shots are really nice, others were just plain eyerolling. Which brings up the first issue with this film-- it's way too anvil heavy. The Puella Magi plan for their new Ipod commercial From a storytelling perspective, it was interesting for Homura to discover the secret of the world. The first few minutes were actually creepy taking everything in context. It was so saccharine and ridiculous-- even adding that ridiculous meme of Charlotte as Mami's pet, every yuri angle ever, flanderization of each character's defining tendencies, making it feel like I'm watching a really terrible fanfiction, albeit highly animated. Yea, seriously it felt like it was a bad fanfiction where you and I were making out... Really? Why would that enter your mind? Wanna try it out though? Well, it's not like we have anything better to do in this shithole In a way when watching this, I was thinking Gen Urobuchi hates You. Yes, you, you and, especially you. Fan fantasies and theories and desires, he hates them all, and has decided to mock them all. Being trapped in a fan fulfillment fantasy is a terrible fate after all. That would be a funny point, but dragged out a bit too long. Oh well, at least it's not like the creator got too petty at viewers missing the point and opened with something dumb like Homura masturbating to an unwary Madoka. Though I bet people would pay to see that too. Though an interesting point is how Sayaka at least has really left her troubles behind, while Mami and Kyoko haven't changed too much; that of which is a nice plot point but it also brings closure to her character. "Oh that guy doesn't love me? I have Kyoko Fuck him!" And indeed, if I were to pick the most improved character from anime to movie, I would say she would win. Unfortunately the story is about something else. *Insert gruff sounding Christian Bale Voice* WHERE IS SHE? TALK.. I don't... SOMEONE KNOWS WHERE SHE IS To complete the Batman analogy, Homura decides to jump out a window but Mami doesn't like Homura's interrogation tactics. So what do they do? Ask Yuki Kaijura to recycle her Fate/Zero music and EPIC FIGHT TIME! And holy shit, that was pretty awesome and the visual cues here were spectacular, with a nice twist at the end. Mami's too plot armored this time and Homura just isn't very good at strategy, rather pressing the autoattack all the time with an occasional utility skill and attempts to overrun Mami with brute force With a pistol/shield build, it's just not going to work against a good rifle user. And that's why I named my engineer in Guild Wars 2 after her, because I play like Homura and look cool most of the time but get owned spectacularly the rest. But this isn't about my lackings as a person, it's about Homura! Although Mami's definitely been keeping her head low this time. But it really gets down to the problem that Homura really just leaps at every opportunity to get to an advantage and suffers from tunnel vision. Tunnel vision is often a source of downfall and tragedy in Madoka, so Homura has needed Madoka's help and Homura's own determination to get through. But has she really learned something? It's okay, it's aesop time now! So here we learn to Homura really hasn't accepted Madoka's leaving too. Madoka did it for the greater good. Homura did it for Madoka. Homura doesn't give a fuck about the greater good honestly, and shit... is Kyubey back again? Will she be able to overcome her own lack of importance while Madoka sits up there being all important? Blah blah blah blah Technobabble Wait, Closed Space? So is Haruhi season 3 trapped there with us? It is. But we didn't plan that. You see, you human beings are irrational and are capable of evil far greater than we could imagine. We really shouldn't have meddled with you guys, but how else will Shaft make more money? .... You exploited us! True, Homura Akemi. But with this new movie, you got to do cool stuff and see your Madoka again. We did you a great favor, and now you're going to pull out a plot device and screw us over again? Of all honesty, this was just getting tiring. They could have really cut parts of this out as in the end it's really just a twist within a twist and doesn't really add anything besides give QB something to do as well as pushing Homura over. Whatever. I'll do worse. I'm going to become the main character But on the other hand seeing Homura take out QB in a way that is reminiscent of Madoka finding a loophole does ring a bell. Unfortunately, after all this she realizes she cannot have Madoka, and fuck it, why should she suffer while everyone gets happiness? And thus Homura came up with a plan. The only way for her to see Madoka more was to prolong the series. And as we know, since QB is out, we need a Face Heel Turn What are you thinking Homura? That's right sister! Puella Magi as you know it is no more! This is the future of Magical girls! The world, the universe, the fans? Well, they can stick it sister! If it weren't for Homura, Akemi, Akuyuki Shinbo would be stuck selling bad clips of brothers shoving toothbrushes down their sisters' throats! If it weren't for Homura Akemi, nobody would have heard of Gen Ubourchi! So with the universe changed, whatcha gonna do when the NHO runs wild on you? And the worst case scenario happened. In the series, Homura's undying love for Madoka seemed the be the only thing that could withstand the curse of a witch. It was one of the purest things you could find, despite being insanely fragile. I mean this weak hearted girl forced herself out of love to become the last standing Puella Magi, and now that she thinks that Madoka needs the ultimate evil for the role to complete, Homura's forced herself to take that role too. That kind of wish allowed for that kind of power. At this point now, the movie got a bit harder for me to take seriously. I mean Homura here is doing hilariously evil things like knocking teacups over. Yes I get the point that she's crazy, but it's bizarrely cute in a way. Maybe it's just me but yo, isn't this sort of on the blatant end? Or maybe Gen's wondering how much it'd take for a fan favorite to get hated. Wait a second. That's right. I'm the main character damn it! Unfortunately for Homura, you can't just capture a god like that and Madoka's will proves to be just as strong as Homura's butthurt lust. That's going to set the stage for the ultimate conflict! Wait why does this remind me of Spoiler for Big spoilers for Shakugan no Shana:
There, I bet I spoiled movie 4. And we end the movie with a Homura that's totally lost her sanity with a Madoka that remains dormant. But ultimately, the most disturbing thing is that not that she lied, cheated, or stole. It's not that she brainwashed witches to cover the crimes of other witches. It's that she can live with it. And she will live with it. Chiwa Saito's amazing acting as Homura really got her points across, regardless of how loony the character was. Massive props to her. Overall, the movie was a lot better than I anticipated, though ultimately, I don't really think I gained too much insight and the movie functions better as a "what if" scenario". Still, I won't deny that I greatly enjoyed seeing the series come back, although it does make me wonder at what cost. I'd say the movie is an 8/10 on my arbitrary scale. I guess personally, I wouldn't be able to accept such a dark ending, though the saccharine world of the first third of the movie shows that sometimes much like in the Matrix, can't accept a perfect world, because we are human. And if anything beyond all the fluff, the movie at least stays true to that. Homura was never really a hero. She just wanted a wish and like many before her, her dreams fell to the wayside, and her witch is so powerful because her wish is so powerful. Maybe even temporarily more powerful than Madoka, but we'll have to see. So, have you ever danced with the devil in the pale moonlight?
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2014-06-14 at 18:43. |
2014-06-14, 15:26 | Link #2036 | ||
The True Culprit
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If it comes down to an ideological debate between Homura and Madoka, I'm going to side with the latter every time. One is an enlightened being who's able to see past her own emotional state and the other is a broken bird who can't let go. Also, Archon Wing's post was a really great read, thanks for that.
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2014-06-15, 21:23 | Link #2037 | |
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Age: 38
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I know a lot of your post, especially the italics, were tongue-in-cheek, but just wanted to point that out. |
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2014-06-15, 21:37 | Link #2038 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Regardless of the saccharine nature of Rebellion's first third, many of those "fanfiction-like" scenes are likely in there, and play out the way they do because the staff wanted to see them, and knew that the fans wanted to see them... Urobuchi is not the only one who worked on the movie, and indeed the interview booklet that comes with the BD makes it sound like he was actually one of the less important creatives involved, in the grand scheme of things. This said, it's still very much an Urobuchi story, as the ending isn't much different from Kikokugai's... what I'm trying to say here is that while you view those "fanfiction" moments as ironic, they were definitely intended to be genuine, if slightly trollish at times. For that matter, he was writing eroge long before that. Hell, I first heard of him thanks to reading Saya no Uta. |
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2014-06-15, 21:50 | Link #2039 | |
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It's easy to get the impression that Nagisa was created just so Mami wouldn't be lonely once the "canon pairings" split off from her. In other words, Nagisa was created for the benefit of Mami fans who like yuri shipping. And yet, the new girl who is seemingly there to be paired off with Mami; this new girl is strongly tied to the Charlotte witch of all things. I mean, I don't think you can get much more ironic than this, lol. Then there's how Kyouko and Sayaka's one big moment is interrupted, in a very cheesy way, by Nagisa. Finally, you could even argue that the much more yandere-esque Homura who overwhelms Madokami in the end is a subtle dig at some HomuMado shippers, given how some fanartists portrayed that pairing prior to Rebellion. I think one can reasonably conclude that the movie is actually poking some fun at fan fantasies and theories. I think Archon might be more right here than you're giving him credit for. I could easily see these "fanfiction-like" scenes being intended to be ironic.
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2014-06-15, 22:45 | Link #2040 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Charlotte has been shipped with Mami before, you know. Also, it's not like Homura being a yandere wasn't a thing in fanfiction (hell, it was a thing in fanart even before the show was halfway over), it's just that Rebellion takes it much further than a fan would feel comfortable doing...
The thing that makes me suspicious of the notion that the movie is intended as this big, like, HA HA SERVES YOU FANS RIGHT FOR SHIPPING EFFECTIVELY OFFICIAL PAIRINGS SO HARD, HA HA is that the staff themselves are obviously fans. Simba even said something about how Madoka has become a collaborative work between the staff + the fans, and Urobuchi's remarks in the BD booklet are something about how he hopes to see people tell lots of new stories given the scenario as presented in the ending... So, yeah. There's that. |
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